Strange grouping with my Ruger Ultralight .257 Rob?

[uvausmc]

I just got a ruger hawkeye ultralight in 257 roberts. It's a perfect rifle with a Leupold VX-II 2-7x. I sighted it in the other day with a handload and got some interesting results. I was shooting 117 gr Hornady SST's over 41.5 grains of H4350. I would get 2 or 3 shots touching then another 2 or 3 shots touching a couple inches away from the other group. I have a couple theories.

A. The load is just not what the rifle likes
B. The approx 30-45 seconds i had between shots wasn't enough to let the thin barrel cool down so it threw some shots
C. I was tired and just not shooting consistently (I had already sighted in a .375 H&H, .338 RCM, and .30-06 that day at the range).

Any ideas? Any recommendations for medium sized game loads?

 

[bpl]

Well, I don't know for sure, but I don't think 30-45 seconds is enough cooling time for a pencil thin ultralight barrel. My Kimber 84M in .257 Roberts will shoot 3 shots into around 1" with about 5 min between shoots, then the next 3 shots into around 1.5", then the next 3 shots into 2" or a bit more.

 

[bpl]

Oh, I'm just shooting factory Hornady 117gr BTSP in it. I haven't tried anything else yet.

 

[dawico]

Is the barrel free floated? It sounds like it likes the load, but has point of impact issues. Did you check the scope mounts and all of the easy stuff? This should include the action to stock screws. Did you shoot more groups to see what else it does? If it is brand new, it may need to settle in a little.

 

[dakotasin]

you're applying inconsistent pressures to the rifle.

as for a load, i like h-414 and 100 grain sierras. in fact, i like it so much that it is my competitive load as well as my big game hunting load; it landed me #4 in the state sporting rifle championships... ruger chambered to 257 roberts is certainly a capable rifle.

regarding cooling time... the match i shoot in features 2 rapid fire stages, back to back, of 4 rounds in 30 seconds. targets are cleaned up, then another 4 rounds in 30 seconds. so that is 8 rounds for score + 2 sighters fired (10 total) in the span of about 4 minutes. a properly bedded and free-floated rifle won't shift poi on you merely due to barrel heat - and i have melted stuff w/ that 257 barrel in the past (running a match in 95° and bright sunlight is not conducive to a cool barrel).

 

[ThomasT]

It is most likely not your problem with this scope. But were you changing the power ring between groups? I used to have a Simmons 4x12 that would change point of impact 4" between both extremes.

If you have a laser bore sighter this is easy to check. Line the crosshairs up at low power and the watch as you turn the power rind and see if the red dot and crosshair diverge from each other. Like I said with a Leupold its not likely but could happen. Be sure you do this test at at least 75 yards or longer so you don't mistake paralax for an adjustment problem.

 

[Uncle Mike]

We have been getting strange happenings with Hornady SST bullets also....so we think!?!

IF everything else is in check, try a different manufactured, or a different Hornady(BTSP) bullet.

 

[uvausmc]

The barrel is not free floated which is something I immediately noticed when I got it. I dont want to mess with the bedding until i have to. All the scope mounts, action screws are good.

The power ring was at 7x the whole time.

I will try another bullet to see if that helps.

Dakotasin, As far as the inconsistent pressures go, are you just saying that H4350 is inconsistent? Thanks for the recommendation of the H414 and 100gr Sierras.

And yes, like a lot of rugers, it probably just needs breaking in.

 

[dakotasin]

no, i mean you as a shooter are applying inconsistent pressure. maybe for one shot you are having to steer the gun onto target, and for another you have to push down on the butt harder, etc.

i would free float it, seal the wood, and try it again. rugers are generally bedded well because of the angled forward action screw.

 

[ole farmerbuck]

My AR was putting 2 here and 2 there until i changed powder amounts and finally went to a different powder. Try a different amount of powder, i'm betting things will change!

 

[Lloyd Smale]

Had one and it did about the same. It just would not shoot even a decent 3 shot group. It would allways have two close and one afar. I tried about everything. bedding floating about a zillion different bullet primer powder combos and finally ended up selling it.

 

[Art Eatman]

Since it's not free-floated, it's very susceptible to variations in pressure on the forearm from non-uniform positioning on the front sandbag. I work at keeping the forearm at the same position on the bag when bench testing. I also try to be uniform in how I hold the rifle and how hard I hold it. As much as possible, I attempt to replicate field conditions.

All this is a lot easier if the wood of the stock is very dense--which is why some stocks cost a lot more than others. Near-perfect bedding of the receiver also helps, which is why Brownell's sells lots of bedding compound.

 

[taliv]

the infamous "2-grouping"...

adjust your seating depth on your bullets. try seating them 2 thou in or out

 

[Uncle Mike]

the infamous "2-grouping"...

adjust your seating depth on your bullets. try seating them 2 thou in or out

Good advice!

and if that does not work, remember, you have a Ruger there.

Had one and it did about the same. It just would not shoot even a decent 3 shot group. It would allways have two close and one afar. I tried about everything. bedding floating about a zillion different bullet primer powder combos and finally ended up selling it.

 

[NCsmitty]

Since it's not free-floated, it's very susceptible to variations in pressure

I agree with Art, as it's very easy to side-load the stock and essentially deflect the barrel between shots. If you support the rifle back near the barrel lug on bag(s) and resist the temptation to grip the forearm, you will find more consistency off the bench. Rear stock support is essential too.



NCsmitty

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Nice looking rifle, great choice in caliber, best of luck.

 

[uvausmc]

thanks for all the tips. i'm going to reevaluate after i go to the range again. As far as the stock pressure goes, I was shooting it of a rest and really only applying pressure straight back. I had support under the middle of the forend and under the butt stock. I think the groups were a combination of the load not being just right, and the fact that i was pretty worn out by the time i got to sighting this rifle in.

As far as the bad rap Rugers get about not being able to shoot well, I've got a stock .338RCM Hawkeye that puts 10 shots in 1.5" @ 100 and a stock Mini-6.8 that shoots 2" groups @ 100 with open sights. I've always had good luck with Rugers.

 

[Silent Sam]

I would not immediately float that barrel by altering the stock.
1. It is grouping well albeit in two different places.
2. Ruger won't help you out on an altered stock if you ever want to go that route.
3. Many times floated barrels will shoot worse with a stock factory rifle.
4. It is a hunting rifle and if the first 2 or 3 shots are always at the same POI and grouping as you say it way more accurate than needed.
You can temporarily float the barrel as a test by shimming the action. Either your bench technique is altering the pressure on the barrel at the pressure point at the tip of the forearm or the rifle is doing it due to barrel heating and/or recoil forces. Does the first two shots from different range sessions go to the same POI? Does the second POI always land in the same place? I would pull the stock and look for any sign of of the barrel or action shifting in the stock. Particularly at the pressure point and at the tang area. Also make sure the action is properly torqued. The directions are on the Ruger website. If a change in seating depth 'fixes' it I would take a close look at the headspace. New rifles can have excessive headspace. Whatever course of action you take, do 1 thing at a time and evaluate at the range. If you make multiple changes w/o testing you will never know what the problem truely is and can easily end up chasing your tail and never correcting the real problem. Be methodical, take good notes, and save/evaluate those targets.
I have the same rifle scope combination using low rings in a MKII and it is one of my favorite deer hunting and walkabout woodchuck/fox whacking rigs. You don't "need" those 117gr bullets for the average whitetail although they are indicating they can shoot very well in your riflle. 100gr bullets will work just fine for that. 117/120gr bullets are good for up to the largest/heaviest game the Roberts is appropriate for which is more than a 100-200lb deer.

 

[Uncle Mike]

Many times floated barrels will shoot worse with a stock factory rifle.

This is truth, law, and gospel! Contrary to popular belief, the cure all for either obtaining a high(er) degree of accuracy, or remedying an accuracy problem does not necessarily lye with 'free floating' a barrel.

If floating barrels worked so very well, ALL the production rifles manufactured would utilize this system, they do not, and for very good reasons, it does not work 100% of the time!

Whatever you do, do it one thing at a time, often we get rifles in that the customer says he has done 'everything' to and it still wont shoot, problem is, the customer did everything all at once....not good!

Do one thing at a time, evaluate that particular 'thing' you did, return your rifle to its original condition, and move on to 'thing' #2...so on!

Silent Sam offers good advice with his entire post!

 

[Maverick223]

Personally I don't see a problem if you can replicate the original group after a decent cool down period (5+ min. would be best).

Contrary to popular belief, the cure all for either obtaining a high(er) degree of accuracy, or remedying an accuracy problem does not necessarily lye with 'free floating' a barrel.

True, but it is an operation that can be reversed. A poorly shooting rifle, at least one with no warranty support, can be free floated and this may remedy the problem (probably not for a lightweight contour bbl). If this doesn't then proceed to bed the barrel with a bit of upwards pressure to the fore-stock (done by the addition of weight to the front sling swivel while it cures). IME this typically works when free-floating doesn't.

 

[Grey Morel]

I think its you.

Not because your a bad shot or anything, but simply because you made the mistake of switching from a 10 pound, heavy recoiling, 375 behemoth to a 5 pound 257 pussy cat. That kind of transition would throw just about anybody.

Ultralight rifles are hard enough to shoot, with their whippy wobbly nature. No need to handicap yourself further. Try shooting it again, solo, at another range session.

GREAT rifle by the way - I was considering the exact same combination just a few months ago. Congratulations in bucking the crowd, and building a light weight, light recoiling, PRACTICAL rifle!

 

[Silent Sam]

Agree with the last few comments, After all they are agreeing with me . 'Fixing' this type of occurence, increasing consistency at the range, can add tons of confidence in the field. Way more important than raw accuracy in my opinion. That alone would make it worth the effort.

 

[ole farmerbuck]

uvausmc, have you had a chance to try anything different yet? I'd still like to see you try either more or less powder before you went to any other trouble.

 

[jmr40]

I'm going with "B". I have a Remington Mt rifle that does about the same thing. The lightweight barrels are not made for long strings. When they heat up you will get uneven pressure on the barrel causing groups to open up.

The last time I shot my Mountain rifle I put my first 3 shots from a cold barrel into 1 hole well under 1/2" by shooting slow. Best group ever with that rifle. Let the rifle cool for only about 5 min and tried it again. 1st shot was right where I wanted it. 2nd shot was 2" to the right. Shot #3 was 3" to the right. Gave it 15-20 to cool down and it put the next 3 shots under 1" and right on target.

I would not worry about it. You have a hunting rifle with more than adequate hunting accuracy. If you want to shoot long strings at the range buy a heavy barreled rifle.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I'm going to agree with those siding with shooting technique.
I've got a M98 Mauser sporter in .257Robt, that will do the same thing.

It too is a featherweight. It weighs 7.0lbs with 2-7x Leupold scope, sling and 5rds of ammo.

From the bench, it is a very touchy firearm. I've gotten groups as tight as 1-hole three shots at 200yds, and 3" groups at 100yds. Same ammo, same day. Simply by not using consistent technique at the bench. I does NOT have a free floated barrel, and the forend is very sensitive to upward or side pressure.

Try setting the forward bag just in front of the forward action screw. Concentrate on consistent pressure to the stock with cheek and trigger hand. Also place forward hand in same spot with same pressure. Often a downward pressure on top of the scope will hold it in place, but don't press too hard downward. More like a firm hand-shake, not a Swartzenegger, hand-shake at that......

What is your trigger like? Mine had a Timney Sportsman that developed a broken adjustment screw, and I replaced it with a Bold trigger. I've got the trigger adjusted to 3.0lbs. Any lighter cannot be felt on cold mornings with gloves on.......

My two Roberts are very fond of 45.0gr of IMR4831 and a 115-120gr bullet for at or near 3,000fps (Federal brass and #210 primer). I also like 48.0gr with a 100gr, as well as 45.0gr IMR4350 and 100gr Sierra Spt. 41.5gr of 4350 sounds about right with the 117gr bullet. Most accurate 100gr load has been Hornady 100gr Spt (not boat-tail) over 48.5gr of old surplus H4831 at 2.990" oal.