Strange story about Blackpowder and "bullet proof" glass...

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whm1974

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Back 2004 something I brought my first firearm after getting my IL FOID after not being around firearms for 8 years.... Anyway I talked to the guard captain at where I was working who also into the shooting sports....

Shortly after that he told me some bull after I purchased a Lee single stage reloading that if I load the .38 Special brass with blackpowder, the bullet would go straight through "bullet proof" glass because blackpowder is way more powerful then smokeless... He then informed me that he "tested" this several times...

Sometime after he said this, I read this article(if the right one) about shooting this:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/?s=bullet+proof+plastic
Not sure if this is the right article since I remembered a Big Arse many feet thick Block of this stuff and with both a 12 gauge slug and a 45-70 rifle bullet stopping inside the block but blowing big chucks of this stuff from the back at over 100 yards away...
 
The glass doesn't a hoot as to what powered the bullet... only what mass & velocity it hits the glass as end result.
(But w/ near 3,000 posts, you already know this) ;)

As to 12ga slug guns, there's something about the modern Brown Bess and plain old Mv that can't be beat.
 
MEHavey said:
The glass doesn't a hoot as to what powered the bullet... only what mass & velocity it hits the glass as end result.
(But w/ near 3,000 posts, you already know this) ;)

As to 12ga slug guns, there's something about the modern Brown Bess and plain old Mv that can't be beat.
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Well a .45 cal 510 gr bullet(or slug) going well over 1,000 fps will be fairly hard to stop...

What other oddball stuff have you guys heard about blackpowder and/or "bullet proof' materials?
 
whm1974 said:
Shortly after that he told me some bull after I purchased a Lee single stage reloading that if I load the .38 Special brass with blackpowder, the bullet would go straight through "bullet proof" glass because blackpowder is way more powerful then smokeless... He then informed me that he "tested" this several times...
Click to expand...

He is wrong.
 
I suspect If you stuff a modern solid head .38spl case almost to the top with 3F powder and top it off with a 158gr slug and shoot it through a 5 inch plus barreled gun over a chronograph, there’s a good chance you might get over 900 FPS from that combo.

Even if you got 1000 fps with that bullet it’s not going to phase anything that could reasonably be called bullet proof glass from one hit.
 
RevolvingGarbage said:
I suspect If you stuff a modern solid head .38spl case almost to the top with 3F powder and top it off with a 158gr slug and shoot it through a 5 inch plus barreled gun over a chronograph, there’s a good chance you might get over 900 FPS from that combo.

Even if you got 1000 fps with that bullet it’s not going to phase anything that could reasonably be called bullet proof glass from one hit.
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What is blackpowder still used for now days besides muzzle loaders and fireworks? Oh wait didn't blackpowder subasuit replaced blackpowder for muzzle loaders?
 
whm1974 said:
What is blackpowder still used for now days besides muzzle loaders and fireworks? Oh wait didn't blackpowder subasuit replaced blackpowder for muzzle loaders?
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Not competely, many diehard muzzle loader and bpcr guys swear by the real stuff. I cant get it out here or id try it, as such I have no real opinion.
 
whm1974 said:
What is blackpowder still used for now days besides muzzle loaders and fireworks? Oh wait didn't blackpowder subasuit replaced blackpowder for muzzle loaders?
Click to expand...

Original guns, like the Trapdoor Springfield, tend to shoot better with blackpowder optimized ammunition. The full-volume blackpowder load and pressure spike will "bump-up" a soft lead lubed bullet to the correct bore size, versus a typical high-density smokeless powder and hard-cast bullet load.
 
whm1974 said:
What is blackpowder still used for now days besides muzzle loaders and fireworks? Oh wait didn't blackpowder subasuit replaced blackpowder for muzzle loaders?
Click to expand...
In over fifty years of shooting flintlock and percussion rifles, shotguns, and pistols I have purchased one pound of substitute powder. It was a pound of Pyrodex when it was first introduced, and even then it was for a breech loading paper cartridge Sharps. After about a dozen shots or so I poured what was left on the ground, stuck a piece of canon fuse in it, and then watched it go poof from fifty feet away. Been nothing but real black since then.
 
Fireworks use flashpowder... I'm curious how hazardous using flashpowder in a muzzle loader would be.

The closest thing I've done with that is use a firecracker to launch a bb in this micro cannon. After sailing through the (full/unopened) can, it continued on to punch a hole in the plastic skirting of my wife's pottery wheel, both sides of the nylon cover for it and then went on to embed itself into the siding of the house. The bb must have had some serious velocity, which boggles my mind as the recoil of the cannon didn't seem all that impressive.

https://live.staticflickr.com/video...Tc3MmZlMTVkNTEwY2VkYzQzMjJhZTk2NzUiLCJ2IjoxfQ
 
whm1974 said:
Well a .45 cal 510 gr bullet(or slug) going well over 1,000 fps will be fairly hard to stop...

What other oddball stuff have you guys heard about blackpowder and/or "bullet proof' materials?
Click to expand...
I did have to laugh at the story because I have little doubt the one who told you that really believed it. Now where he "heard" it who knows. Before the net came along there used to be a LOT of really good ones that lived a full life of being re-told. Not BP related but my favorite used to be the way large calibers would "knock a man off his feet", send him flying backwards and such. That one I used to prove to people was an urban myth all the time. Many had been told this so long, they would watch you prove it's not true, and stand there wanting to not believe what they just watched. TV and movies have been great for this. How many times do you see a show of someone wearing soft armor shot who acts like nothing happened. Anyone shot at close range wearing soft armor can sure as hell tell you they did not feel nothing :D
 
Alex Clayton said:
I did have to laugh at the story because I have little doubt the one who told you that really believed it. Now where he "heard" it who knows. Before the net came along there used to be a LOT of really good ones that lived a full life of being re-told. Not BP related but my favorite used to be the way large calibers would "knock a man off his feet", send him flying backwards and such. That one I used to prove to people was an urban myth all the time. Many had been told this so long, they would watch you prove it's not true, and stand there wanting to not believe what they just watched. TV and movies have been great for this. How many times do you see a show of someone wearing soft armor shot who acts like nothing happened. Anyone shot at close range wearing soft armor can sure as hell tell you they did not feel nothing :D
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I've seen pictures of cops wearing soft body armor after they been shot, and they always have nasty bruises and sometimes even broken ribs depending what exactly they have been shot with.
 
whm1974 said:
I've seen pictures of cops wearing soft body armor after they been shot, and they always have nasty bruises and sometimes even broken ribs depending what exactly they have been shot with.
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Yep stuff can and does save lives all the time but, get hit with a large caliber at close range and it does not just bounce off and leave you nothing. It can and does hurt like hell. With soft armor its all a trade off. Make something flexible and comfortable that people will use it but, that means just because it stops the bullet does not mean it does not hurt. I wear soft for work and it is great for getting kicked and hit which has happened many times. Those I often did not even notice they had "got me" till the fight was over and my partner would ask if I was OK. It will soak up blows quite well. One I use now is really good for anything with a blade also. Hope to never test that part :D
 
You'll be lucky in most cases to get over 1700 fps in usual cases from a long barreled black powder rifle.
Hi-vel and blackpowder are not spoken in the same breath. You might pass 2k with a small bore 36 or smaller.

The HIGHLY compressed pellet in the old BP optimized 303 got about 1700-1800 fps.
You'll break normal glass but only scratch bullet proof glass.

Thats with a rifle. Handguns are even worse with velocity.

My 38 special with a 148gr wc and a full case of 4f is a 830fps load.
 
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Snowdog said:
I'm curious how hazardous using flashpowder in a muzzle loader would be.
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Extraordinarily Hazardous!

Flash Powder is an explosive. A powerful one. Detonation produces pressure waves of some 25,000 feet per second as compared to the common burn rate of 513 to 1800 feet per second displayed by black powder, a “low explosive”.
It will even self-confine and explode as a mere pile of its self. Smokeless Gunpowder needs to be confined in a pipe or case to build enough pressure to blow, otherwise it just burns.

As comparison, RDX’s detonation Rate is 26,250 feet second and PETN slightly faster than that, at 27,000 FPS.
So all three are “High Explosives”.

Even the large professional fireworks mortars use black powder as the lift charge, anything else is too violent.

Flash powder is also corrosive. In a way that makes Black Powder look like a preservative.:eek:
 
whm1974 said:
What is blackpowder still used for now days besides muzzle loaders and fireworks?
Click to expand...
I use it for my .45-70 govt match loads for my 1885 Winchester high wall match rifle...

IMG_20191222_183617285.jpg
To compete in BPCR (Black Powder Cased Rifle) matches, you have to use genuine black powder in your loads. I have about 6-7 lbs of the good Goex FFFG stuff still.

I've never fired a single non-blackpowder round through the rifle.

The recoil pulse is interesting. I would fire 50 rounds during a match and still not be sore afterwards.

My load was, IIRC, 65 grains of blackpowder, topped with a vegetable wad, then a 500 grain cast lead bullet.

It's the one on the left...

ODN3JtiZTWy6MSQpKR1IJA.jpeg
 
Demi-human's post reminded me.

Flash powder is what's used in those aerial salutes. It does not have to be confined to make those huge blasts. Up until about twenty years ago I think you could purchase it from classifieds in photographic magazines. I believe it was supposed to be used photographically for night lighting large objects like buildings and mountains and such.

The Colorado School of Mines used to have an annual fireworks display during Homecoming and one of the features was a series of salutes suspended from a wire stretched between two fence posts and lit by fast match to provide a rapid succession of explosions. This was close to the stands so you could really feel the shock waves. The salutes were merely two four inch half shells of plastic glued together and a little over half filled with flash powder. These were real gut-slapping, hair-mussing explosions. My son and I were sitting about twenty yards from the string.

You could really learn a lot talking to these licensed pyros. Pyros from all over would come to test out their "effects" for free, so it was one hell of a grand display.

Don't know if they still do that. I don't recall any concussions coming from the school parade grounds last April but I might not have been around at just the right time.

My son and I will never forget that rapid succession of ground salutes that up close. And just, what, three oz of flash powder loosely packed in a 4" plastic sphere? Wowsa.

Flash powder is not a suitable fuel for firearms.

Terry, 230RN
 
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RevolvingGarbage said:
I suspect If you stuff a modern solid head .38spl case almost to the top with 3F powder and top it off with a 158gr slug and shoot it through a 5 inch plus barreled gun over a chronograph, there’s a good chance you might get over 900 FPS from that combo.
Click to expand...
I've done exactly that......and got 690 FPS out of a 5 1/2 " hogleg. With the 158 gr cast and FFFG. You can only get about 15 to 17 grains of powder in the case and still have enough room to seat the bullet deep enough to work in the revolver's cylinder.

4F is not normally used in revolvers over 31 cal. It is for priming the pan of a flintlock and not much else.
 
tark said:
I've done exactly that......and got 690 FPS out of a 5 1/2 " hogleg. With the 158 gr cast and FFFG. You can only get about 15 to 17 grains of powder in the case and still have enough room to seat the bullet deep enough to work in the revolver's cylinder.

4F is not normally used in revolvers over 31 cal. It is for priming the pan of a flintlock and not much else.
Click to expand...

Very interesting! I sure would love to do a bit of experimenting with different bullet types and powder granulation to see if that can be improved. A source of balloonhead cases to try as well would be fun if they could be found. I have a small amount in .32s&w at the moment but haven’t got a chance to compare stuffing em with 4F powder vs a solid head.
B8248FC9-7FCE-4D3A-ABB9-5730E47B2F3E.jpeg
 
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