Straw Purchasers

[Fairlane63]

The thread on Badger Guns has me wondering a couple of things:

1) I guess this question is aimed at gun store owners and employees-- how do you spot a "straw buyer"? Is it really obvious? Or would it be subtle clues that someone not in the business would probably miss? I hope that isn't a stupid question-- I have a particular "straw buyer profile" in my mind that may or may not be reality. That brings me to the second question...

2) Are gun shops accused of racial/ethnic/cultural/whatever profiling or prejudice when they refuse to sell based on a suspicion of straw purchasing? It seems to me that a gun store owner is between a rock and a hard place with this dilemma-- if they don't stop a straw purchase, they get bad press and government harassment like Badger Guns. If they do refuse to sell to a gang-banger-looking fellow on the grounds that he may likely be a straw purchaser, it seems that a civil rights-type suit or complaint might be filed. Which I guess brings me back to the first question...

Just curious. Thanks.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Are gun shops accused of racial/ethnic/cultural/whatever profiling or prejudice when they refuse to sell based on a suspicion of straw purchasing?

The race card is the joker of the leftist extremist deck. Play it first, play it last, play it again and again, but play it!

 

[gezzer]

As a gun dealer We may refuse a sale to ANYONE. BATFE will back this up.

 

[Lupinus]

if a lady walks in asks what the cheapist 9mm guns you have handy are, you respond, she asks how many, you say 20, she says I'll take them all and pulls out a roll of money that is generaly a good sign it is a straw buy

 

[LoneCoon]

I'd think if several people come in at the same time and ask to see only the cheapest guns, with the person doing little if any of the looking finally making the decison, that'd be a tip off.

But, then again, I'm no dealer, so what do I know?

 

[mete]

It isn't the responsibility of the dealer to track what happens to a gun after the sale ! If he is suspicious of the sale he can refuse it. If the buyer fullfills all the legal requirements the gun can be sold to him. Once it leaves the store it's someone else's problem.

 

[AJAX22]

Just for my own morbid curiosity,

Is it considered a straw buy if you buy a gun, take it out and shoot it that day, absolutly hate the dang thing, but your buddy falls in love with it so you sell it to him for what you paid.

assuming your in a state where private party transfers like that are the norm.

I haven't done this, so no worries about me actually BEING a straw purchaser

I pick my guns more carefully than that.

 

[Husker1911]

Geezer, "As a gun dealer We may refuse a sale to ANYONE. BATFE will back this up."

Absolutely correct, as expounded upon by local BATFE agents. Beware if you make any purchase NOT for yourself or as a gift! Big Brother is watching.

 

[mete]

Ajax22, a straw purchase is one where the second buyer cannot legally buy the gun from the dealer.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Ajax22, a straw purchase is one where the second buyer cannot legally buy the gun from the dealer.

You may be correct, but F-Troop does not agree with you. They focus on the intent of the buyer. The 4473 form asks if you are the actual buyer. If you are not, you cannot truthfully answer "yes."

In Ajax22's senario, it would be legal. He intended to buy it for himself and then changed his intent later, ater the purchase.

 

[Deavis]

You may be correct, but F-Troop does not agree with you. They focus on the intent of the buyer. The 4473 form asks if you are the actual buyer. If you are not, you cannot truthfully answer "yes."

I'm sorry, I have disagree with you on truthfully answering that question. If you are paying money for the gun, actually completeing the transaction, then you are the actual buyer. It doesn't ask you who gave you money for the gun, just that you are the actual buyer, which you are if you complete the transaction.

If I give you $5, send you into the store to buy my a candy bar, and you buy it then you are the customer and purchaser. I didn't physically purchase it and therefore I cannot be the buyer. Let's go a step further.

If I front you $1 million to buy a business and wish to remain a "silent partner" who is the actual purchaser, you or me? I am an investor, not a purchaser or buyer. The person who carries out the actual transaction is the actual buyer, even if it is with someone else's money. The other person is an investor/owner but cannot be the purchaser/buyer because they did not carry out the transaction. It is physically impossible to be the purchaser if you don't actually commit the act of purchasing!

In the end, it all boils down to what the law says. The law says it is a straw purchase only if you purchase a weapon for someone who cannot leagally own it. That means I can, if I so desired, buy guns for my shooting buddies until the cows come home because they can all legally own a weapon. Since I am actually carrying out the transaction, I am the actual buyer of the weapon and have no problem truthfully answering that question, "YES". Just my opinion.

 

[Henry Bowman]

As I said, you may be correct. But the armed-to-the-teeth-accountable-to-no-one-JBT's of the BATFE think otherwise and have the largest law firm in the USA (the Justice Dept.) on their side. Is this a fight you want to pick?

 

[Zero_DgZ]

...with the person doing little if any of the looking finally making the decison, that'd be a tip off.

I'm not quite sure that clause is a good idea. I do that all the time.

"Do you have (make/model/caliber X)?"
"Yes."
"Wrap it up, then. I want one."

 

[AJ Dual]

As a gift for someone who is legaly able to own a firearm, you can answer "Yes" truthfully on a 4473.

Because the Gun is 100% for you as the pruchaser, to give as a gift.

Clear as mud?

But seriously, if the intended gift recpient is legal to own the gun, and resides in the same state as the giver, AND, the state has no laws against private face-to-face firearm transactions, just buy the gun. Don't bother the paranoid store clerks with lots of legal questions. You are fine with the law.

I personaly have been in both Bager Guns (Now Badger Outdoors) and the other gun shops in the Milwaukee Metro, and I have personaly seen them kick out straw-buyers several time. I've even watched as one store called the other with discription information on particularily egregious cases.

Despite the fact that they aren't the best store in the service dept., the "political dept" (Calling for an end to private sales in WI), or the price dept. there is no way that Badger could stay in business so long as the #1 "trace" store in the country, if their books weren't impeccable, and they didn't bend over backwards to cooperate with the ATF and local law enforcment.

And there are truly unique "mitigating circumstances" as to why Badger is "#1".

- There are NO gun stores in Milwaukee proper, they ring the city in the burbs, much like Chicago. Badger is the closest one to Milwaukee proper.

- Badger is the only store in a "so-so" area. They are on the intersection of two relatively major streets. (think bus lines) The straw-buying element is probably somewhat uncomfortable in the more suburban stores. Remember, Milwaukee is very segregated. That's changing slowly, but for the most part, the "other" ethnicity/skin color still looks very out of place in certain neighborhoods here.

- Probably as an ode to it's Germanic/anal-retentive roots, Milwaukee is one of the few major cities that performs a trace on every "crime gun". Most cities don't bother unless they feel tracing the firearm has some substantive benifit to the criminal case.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

If you are buying a gun as a gift for a relative,
who is legally qualified to receive and possess a gun,
you are the actual buyer of the gun and it is
not a straw purchase.

ATF has made a rule, which I believe still stands, that
if you buy a gun as a gift, the purchase must be made
with your own funds.

Again, the Fifth District court has ruled that the intent
of Congress was to prevent guns from going to
unqualified individuals, not to prevent gifts to
qualified individuals.

If your GF or BF or TGF with a felony record has you
buy the gun for them, because they cannot pass a
background check, that's a straw purchase.
If a person you barely know offers you money
to buy a gun for them, that's a straw purchase.
For an individual to buy a gun on behalf of another
individual who is NOT legally qualified to receive and
possess a gun, is fer shure a straw purchase.

Now, for an individual to buy a gun for another
individual who is legally qualified to receive and
possess a gun but who is not a relative, it may or
may not be treated as a straw purchase, depending
on decisions of your federal district court and local
problems with felons getting guns by straw purchase.

If a dealer is not comfortable with a deal or suspects
the intent of the purchaser, he can refuse the transaction
by all accounts I have heard recently.
============================================
IANAL, IAJALWMKUWLTLHAHTKUW
I Am Not A Lawyer,
I Am Just A Layman Who Must Keep Up With Laws That
Lawyers Have A Hard Time Keeping Up With

 

[gezzer]

Our ATF inspectors said to push gift certificates and let the reciepient purchase the firearm that way.

Talked with our lawyer about that and he agreed this was the best to protect the bussiness from lawsuits later on.

 

[Derby FALs]

FROM THE HORSE"S MOUTH

15. "STRAW PURCHASES"


Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use "straw purchasers" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.


In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.


This article does not purport to cover sales to persons who purchase firearms with the intent of making gifts of such firearms to other persons. In instances such as this, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records.