"Straw Purchase" question

[CollinLeon]

"a free man has the right to buy anything he wants "

Stolen goods?
Child pornography?
Heroin?

Care to reconsider your position?

That's probably a red herring... A libertarian might argue that the mere possession or purchase of any item should not be illegal, only the actions that you inflicted upon another with said item. Using that argument, one might say that the mere possession, sale, or purchase of these items might not be illegal, but the creation might be. As much as I agree with the libertarians on many things, I'm not quite at the point where I can agree with them completely on all of this.

 

[Bubba613]

Straw purchases have only been illegal as they relate to firearms since the FFL system was instituted in 1968. And it most certainly is an infringement... a free man has the right to buy anything he wants as long as it is a mutually voluntary sale, and to dispose of it however he wants including giving it to anyone he wants. Its an infringement on the more fundamental rights to contract and property, along with being an infringement on the right to bear arms, to prohibit straw purchases.

I would bet they were illegal prior to that as well.
Anyone can give a gun to anyone else he wants as a gift. That hasn't changed. He cannot pretend to buy it for himself but have the idea that he is not really the buyer, but a fake, or straw, buyer.
Are you saying people have the right to commit fraud? Really?

 

[CollinLeon]

I would bet they were illegal prior to that as well.
Anyone can give a gun to anyone else he wants as a gift. That hasn't changed. He cannot pretend to buy it for himself but have the idea that he is not really the buyer, but a fake, or straw, buyer.
Are you saying people have the right to commit fraud? Really?

Actually, before the infringement upon our 2nd Amendment rights of GCA68, there was no such thing as a "straw purchase". I'm old enough to remember that at least... Not old enough to remember the good old days before NFA34, but that doesn't mean I can't wish we were back to then with respect to our laws... There was no "fraud" involved because their was no 4473 form back then... Just shows how far down the slippery slope we have gone when people think that the current infringements are completely reasonable...

 

[CollinLeon]

I just came across this link:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

On page 7 (of 243) of the document, it describes in (21) the phrase "engaged in the business" and in (22) the phrase "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit".

Even if someone was making $100 on each sale, I don't think that 20 per year would count as a "livelihood". More likely just a hobby that gives him some beer money periodically or as a way to meet like minded people. I sold a spare lower recently to a local guy who was from my hometown. We spent about an hour talking about guns, our old hometown, and such. Turned out that we had a lot in common over the years. Yeah, I made a few bucks off of the sale, but I don't think that it would classify as a principal objective of livelihood and profit. More likely it would classify as "social networking for a hermit"...

 

[Birch Knoll]

I don't think that 20 per year would count as a "livelihood".

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. ATF would almost certainly have a very different opinion, and their opinion will get you locked into a little concrete-and-steel cage.

"Livelihood" doesn't mean it's your full-time business, or even a major component of your income. Engaging regularly in the business of buying and selling firearms, even if it's just beer money, requires a license.

There's plenty of small, home-based dealers out there who turn small profits, no profits, or who lose money. Trust me, that doesn't exempt them from licensing.

 

[dogtown tom]

crossrhodes ... I was also surprised about the new law allowing firearms purchase from other then contiguous states, part of the economy recovery act. Inspector said it was low key when passed. My guess is because the Obama followers would be really upset about their POTUS allowing firearms sales to other then contiguous states. To pro firearm for them.

Oh.My.Goodness.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Yep, What Carl N. Brown and Sam1911 said. We had ATF here yesterday, changing from an 01 to an 07, and asked for clarification on the straw purchase and gift giving of a firearm. I was also surprised about the new law allowing firearms purchase from other then contiguous states, part of the economy recovery act. Inspector said it was low key when passed. My guess is because the Obama followers would be really upset about their POTUS allowing firearms sales to other then contiguous states. To pro firearm for them.

Oh.My.Goodness.

I agree Tom. Since the "contiguous state" requirement for rifles/shotguns was done away with in 1986! 15 years ago is a "new" law? Geez, how long does it take for it to become an "old" law?

 

[CollinLeon]

I agree Tom. Since the "contiguous state" requirement for rifles/shotguns was done away with in 1986! 15 years ago is a "new" law? Geez, how long does it take for it to become an "old" law?

"Old" laws have to have been in existence at the very least prior to the birth of your grandfather...

Hmmm....

After thinking about this a bit, I believer that I'm wrong with that statement...

Old laws are ones where they were chiseled in stone... Or at the very least, they had to be written on parchment with a quill pen since nothing more modern existed...

 

[natman]

I agree Tom. Since the "contiguous state" requirement for rifles/shotguns was done away with in 1986! 15 years ago is a "new" law? Geez, how long does it take for it to become an "old" law?

Minor quibble: Hard as it is to believe, 1986 was 25 years ago. How time flies!

Otherwise I agree, the contiguous states law has been gone lone enough that word should have gotten around by now.

 

[crossrhodes]

New law

All I know is that she showed us a law that was passed in 2010 under the economic recovery act and was kept low key because it had to do with sales and non contiguous states. It was in favor of FFL's. For us it won't matter much because we only sell to VT, NH residence only.

 

[dogtown tom]

crossrhodes All I know is that she showed us a law that was passed in 2010 under the economic recovery act and was kept low key because it had to do with sales and non contiguous states. It was in favor of FFL's. For us it won't matter much because we only sell to VT, NH residence only.

Seriously?
A gun law that is "low key"?

The NRA has staff that know EVERYTHING about EVERY bit of legislation on Capitol Hill.....and its been kept secret?

Please show us this mystery law.

 

[barnetmill]

My issue with "straw purchase" has been does it in anyway cover a gift of a firearm to a minor. I buy a handgun for my say 16 yr old niece. While not a felon, she is not old enough to legally purchase a gun and so might be prohibited from receiving one. Have I broken any federal law?

 

[Sam1911]

My issue with "straw purchase" has been does it in anyway cover a gift of a firearm to a minor. I buy a handgun for my say 16 yr old niece. While not a felon, she is not old enough to legally purchase a gun and so might be prohibited from receiving one. Have I broken any federal law?

A gift is not a straw purchase, so no. You may buy a gun to GIVE to any lawful possessor.

Federally, she can't purchase a handgun from a dealer until she's 21. And, since the Youth Handgun Safety Act of 1994, she can't possess a hangun or handgun ammo until she's 18.

Illegal, but not a straw purchase.

If she, now, or after she turns 18, or after she turns 21, gave you money and said, "Here, go buy me a handgun," then that would be a straw purchase -- regardless of whether she could legally purchase or possess it or not.

 

[Bubba613]

One could add that a gift of a firearm to a minor is OK but the giver must be the parent or guardian.

 

[barnetmill]

Thanks Sam1911. I was not aware of the "Youth Handgun Safety Act of 1994". I will have to look that one up. A few yrs ago I had a remington rifle of a type that had a bad reputation for durability and I traded it for a better rifle to friend. he was intending to give my ex-rifle to a neighbor's boy as hunting rifle. Friend sold the rifle after the boy got caught with a friend w/ maryjane in his car and the boy's father said no hunting rifle for his son for obvious reasons.
Can one give a rifle to an underage juvenile offender charged with a pot possession offense?

 

[NavyLCDR]

One could add that a gift of a firearm to a minor is OK but the giver must be the parent or guardian.

In most states, that is completely false information. The giver can be anybody in most states. If the recipient of the handgun is under 18 years old, than the permanent transfer of a handgun to the person violates Federal law (18 USC 922(x)) even if given by the parents or guardian.

Minor quibble: Hard as it is to believe, 1986 was 25 years ago. How time flies!

Dang it! That NEW math is kicking my rear!

 

[Bubba613]

I should have specified long gun. This was in one of ATF's videos on straw purchases.

 

[crossrhodes]

I guess some times even the NRA are left out of the loop. STRAW Purchase or Gift....what SAM 1911 said.

 

[CollinLeon]

One could add that a gift of a firearm to a minor is OK but the giver must be the parent or guardian.

I was thinking that you could give it as a gift even if you weren't the parent or guardian, as long as you had the permission of the parent or guardian...

Either way, it's still an unconstitutional infringement upon our 2nd Amendment rights as intended by the Founding Fathers...

 

[Sam1911]

I was thinking that you could give it as a gift even if you weren't the parent or guardian, as long as you had the permission of the parent or guardian...

Not exactly.

You can temporarily provide one to a minor (like for a shooting competition or something) with prior, written permission of the parent. You can't make a permanent transfer of a handgun to a minor, PERIOD.

Here's the ATF's brochure with the text of the law: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-5300-2.pdf

Even if they inherit one as a bequest, they obtain ownership of the handgun, but may not have possession of it until they're 18.

 

[CoRoMo]

...even the NRA are left out of the loop.

I don't think that's possible. But for the past couple days now, I've been searching around for anything that you might be referring to. I can't even find an "Economic Recovery Act of 2010". There was the 'The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009', but WhiteHouse.gov doesn't even list the bill that you are referring to.

They have a list of every piece of legislation that bears the president's signature. Go here... http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/signed-legislation/2010 and point out the bill, and we will be happy to dig through it for you and find the gun law(s). It's important that new gun legislation be known by as many gun owners and dealers as possible.

Surely you could even call your IOI and ask them what they were referring to, right? Let us know what you find.

 

[NavyLCDR]

All I know is that she showed us a law that was passed in 2010 under the economic recovery act and was kept low key because it had to do with sales and non contiguous states. It was in favor of FFL's. For us it won't matter much because we only sell to VT, NH residence only.

Wow, next thing you know we might even be able to carry guns in National Parks!

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist...

 

[crossrhodes]

I'll call

I'll just call the inspector, she's local, and have her reference it again and I'll post it for you gents. That should save the school yard bantering. Maybe she was wrong, maybe I was wrong, but ether way I'll get clarification. I'm a big boy and can handle my mistakes.