Stray round hits house, source alleged to be nearby range
- Thread starter Devonai
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NewShooter78
Member
Mpayne,
The developers decided to enter the area of the range. If there are any problems it is because they decided to develope there after the range had been there for many decades. I'm not blind, but putting the pressure on the range owners for a foreseeable problem the developers should have noticed is not right. The residents shouldn't blame the range for something that can and does happen at every range. They should be the ones to help work out a solution for the range and not force it to close down until it fixes it's problem. As for the validity of the claim in the first place, see all the other posts.
BrokenPaw
Member
I don't know whether 95 ft-lbs of energy is sufficient to cause the damage discussed in the article, but 90 feet of bullet drop is not unreasonable, since it's 90 feet from the line the bullet was taking when it left the muzzle; if the shooter shot at an angle that would have put the bullet over the berm, it's possible that 90 feet of drop would have put it right in the garage.
I'm not saying that it's not a setup, but that bullet drop like Hawkman describes is not grounds to dismiss the possibility that King's story is legitimate.
The way I read the article, King isn't taking a particularly bad stance on the whole thing; if a bullet hit my house, you can bet I'd be wanting to find out why, too. But he said
That doesn't sound like an anti's attitude to me...
I regularly find arrows with field points stuck into the ground or trees in the back part of my land. I took a look at their probable trajectory, and figured out that my next-door neighbour probably practices in his back yard, and occasionally misses his backstop. I wanted to know where they were coming from. Now that I know, I'm not losing sleep over it. Like Mr. King.
-BP
Andrew Rothman
Member
So what exactly is a tolerable number of bullets escaping range property?
Grow up. You can't leave undeveloped a two-mile, 45-degree arc past the backstop of a shooting range. It's not practical. And in your world, no new shooting range would EVER be built, because the owners would have to buy a couple square miles of property behind their range.
No, I think putting up a higher backstop is pretty damn reasonable for the safety, legal and political protection it provides.
Matt
gun-fucious
Member
The golf course on Connecticut Avenue in Chevy Chase DC has about 150 foot tall netting along the road, but there is a limit to how far up you can wack a ball with a stick.
Whats a gun range gonna do?
Make hardened shoot houses?
Whats a gun range gonna do?
Make hardened shoot houses?
Mr. James
Member
Wow - grew up a mile from there, just west of the high school.
I was astounded the Sportsmens Club was still open when I last visited Bainbridge Island at Christmas.
Mpayne, they built those houses next to a club which had functioned without incident for over half a century. Your point is taken, but if they were acting in good faith, the Homeowners Association would offer to defray the costs. I suspect this fool, Mr. Green, is just salivating at a chance to close 'em up for good. Their Wednesday night shoots were always a hoot - sounded like the invasion of Grenada. Probably just the thing to keep Mr. Green up nights.
This is like moving next to the dump and complaining of the stink. BS meter pegged.
I was astounded the Sportsmens Club was still open when I last visited Bainbridge Island at Christmas.
Mpayne, they built those houses next to a club which had functioned without incident for over half a century. Your point is taken, but if they were acting in good faith, the Homeowners Association would offer to defray the costs. I suspect this fool, Mr. Green, is just salivating at a chance to close 'em up for good. Their Wednesday night shoots were always a hoot - sounded like the invasion of Grenada. Probably just the thing to keep Mr. Green up nights.
This is like moving next to the dump and complaining of the stink. BS meter pegged.
durango
Member
I can't find the reference but I remember reading a year or two ago about a lawsuit against a gun range brought on by someone who claimed their house was hit. It was a longer distance than the one discussed here (1.5 or 2 miles I think), but an ammunition manufacturer (Winchester I think) got involved and showed convincing evidence that the round in question could not have travelled from the range and cause the damage claimed. The case was dismissed.
If there is trouble brewing for the Bainbrige club they might want to get some input from the ammo companies since they have the data and have probably dealt with this before. If putting in a better backstop makes everyone happy, then they'll probably be best to just do it. Life ain't always fair, but there you are.
If there is trouble brewing for the Bainbrige club they might want to get some input from the ammo companies since they have the data and have probably dealt with this before. If putting in a better backstop makes everyone happy, then they'll probably be best to just do it. Life ain't always fair, but there you are.
Andrew Rothman
Member
There was no incident because no one minded the occasional stray bullet flying across undeveloped land.
A sloppily designed outdoor range is okay as long as the area isn't developed. But once it is, the range needs to step up and provide the safety measures that should have been there all along.
Matt
rock jock
Member
IOW, private property rights are unlimited, except when it comes to guns, then there should be exceptions. I guess, given the possible distance that high-powered rifle bullets can travel, no one should live within 7-8 miles downrange of a gun club. I guess the property owner of all the land downrange ought to just right off their investment, leave it undeveloped, essentially subsidizing the gun club.
Try your sentence with a few substitutions:
1. There is always a chance for a piece of burning debris to end up outside of a brush pit, no matter how safe any neighbor is.
Therefore, when your neighbor inadvertantly burns down your house, its your fault for building next door to someone who occasionally burns leaves. Also your fault for not having an extinguisher at the ready.
2. There is always a chance for a vicious dog to end up outside of their yard, no matter how safe any pet owner is.
Likewise, when your kid gets chewed on by a pit bull, remember that it is your fault.
I could go on but I think you see my point.
Daniel T
Member
There is a range near Austin that is in danger of being shut down because of some dubious claims by a single landowner near the range.
This person's house is about 2500 ft. from the back of the property the range is on. This person "discovered" a spent .30ish round on his back porch. He claims this round entered the top of his garage, ricochetted off the cement floor, exited the top of the garage about a foot from where it entered, then came to rest on his porch. Err, sure thing. He also claims that a 1" deep dent in a metal fence post was caused by a bullet from the range, but that he can't locate the round that made it.
None of this person's neighbors report any problems. Also, did I mention that the area this person lives in has street signs that have been used for target practice? Yet, these rounds obviously came from the range.
I doubt this ??? is even an anti. He probably sees what he thinks is a chance for some easy cash, to hell with anyone else.
This person's house is about 2500 ft. from the back of the property the range is on. This person "discovered" a spent .30ish round on his back porch. He claims this round entered the top of his garage, ricochetted off the cement floor, exited the top of the garage about a foot from where it entered, then came to rest on his porch. Err, sure thing. He also claims that a 1" deep dent in a metal fence post was caused by a bullet from the range, but that he can't locate the round that made it.
None of this person's neighbors report any problems. Also, did I mention that the area this person lives in has street signs that have been used for target practice? Yet, these rounds obviously came from the range.
I doubt this ??? is even an anti. He probably sees what he thinks is a chance for some easy cash, to hell with anyone else.
MagKnightX
Member
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"I am fairly comfortable in saying that the particular gun that was used to fire this bullet is a very powerful gun," Green said. "I don't know if we need that kind of weapon on a target range. To me, it's an egotistical kind of weapon to own. I think there should be a limitation on the power of the weapons people are allowed to use."
*ahem.* I certainly will not deny that a 9mm Parabellum round can and usually will, if fired into a human being or other animal, kill. However, I have an issue with his statement. *cough cough*
AHAAAHAHAHAHAAAHAHHAAHAAHAAAAA!
9mm Luger "very powerful?" Give me a break.
And of course, the whole "limitation on power" thing, and the "shouldn't be allowed at a target range, egotistical" BS.
Still, s**t like this never makes our sport look good.
*ahem.* I certainly will not deny that a 9mm Parabellum round can and usually will, if fired into a human being or other animal, kill. However, I have an issue with his statement. *cough cough*
AHAAAHAHAHAHAAAHAHHAAHAAHAAAAA!
9mm Luger "very powerful?" Give me a break.
And of course, the whole "limitation on power" thing, and the "shouldn't be allowed at a target range, egotistical" BS.
Still, s**t like this never makes our sport look good.
Some of these numbers are not adding up to me. The range at first is 3/4 of a mile (or about 4000 feet) away from the King's house, but the bullet is supposedly to travel only 2200 feet some what. Exactly where is the firing line? If you rough guess the 3/4 mile figure, how do you come up with a figure like 2200 feet and not something like 2000 or 2500 feet? With the dense undergrowth and the berm you certainly can't see, so how was it measured? Was the flight path calculated by using the 2 bullet holes in the walls?
No matter where the firing line is, no bullet traveling that distance would have a flight path that would take it thru dense undergrowth. Hold over would dictate the flight path of the bullet to fly over the undergrowth and most trees.
No matter where the firing line is, no bullet traveling that distance would have a flight path that would take it thru dense undergrowth. Hold over would dictate the flight path of the bullet to fly over the undergrowth and most trees.
Monkeyleg
Member.
Same thing happened with our club, except it was supposedly a .30 caliber rifle.
If there's any hint that someone wants to get the range shut down, get ballistics experts and attorney ASAP.
We were fortunate in that the police chief only demanded range officers on duty at all times, even though we had a ballistics expert say the round couldn't have come from our range. Other ranges haven't been so fortunate.
If there's any hint that someone wants to get the range shut down, get ballistics experts and attorney ASAP.
We were fortunate in that the police chief only demanded range officers on duty at all times, even though we had a ballistics expert say the round couldn't have come from our range. Other ranges haven't been so fortunate.
I just ran through the Sierra Infinity ballistics program what the MAXIMUM range would be for a Winchester 9mm 115gr FMJ round at 1190FPS would be. The results come with the muzzle inclined up at a 30 degree angle and the bullet comes down 1884 YARDS latter. I have shot at a lot of ranges and I have never seen a berm that went up that high. I have seen holes in the roof. I have seen dead trees that were bullet riddled at the top of a 30 foot berm behind the 100 yard back stop (approximately 5.7 degrees). But I have never seen an outdoor range that could contain an errant round.
At one local range there was a situation similar to this with a new neighbor. Fortunately the investigating officer noticed that the bullet hole in the wall was going up and not down. The last I knew the range owner counter sued.
Fortunately most shooters are extremely careful and when something does go wrong the consequences aren't as bad as they could have been. But when you have as many cartridges fired per year as we do in this country, eventually something will go wrong.
At one local range there was a situation similar to this with a new neighbor. Fortunately the investigating officer noticed that the bullet hole in the wall was going up and not down. The last I knew the range owner counter sued.
Fortunately most shooters are extremely careful and when something does go wrong the consequences aren't as bad as they could have been. But when you have as many cartridges fired per year as we do in this country, eventually something will go wrong.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
People who can't trouble themselves to get the facts straight shouldn't try to masquerade as journalists.
Well, I'm not going to argue one way or the other, but as far as I can see there is nothing impossible or unbelievable about the claims of the homeowner.
A 9mm will most certainly go that far.
A 9mm will most certainly retain enough energy to penetrate a wall at that distance. I shoot airguns--650 fps is a typical STARTING velocity and the pellets are MUCH lighter than a 9mm bullet, and they will penetrate a surprising amount. 115 grains at 400-500fps will definitely make it through a light wall which is what a shake wall is.
I have seen shooters, especially new shooters, accidentally squeeze off a second round while the gun is in recoil. I had a coworker do this with my .44 mag revolver--I try not to think about where the bullet went.
I've also heard of autopistols doubling which typically results in the second round being fired at a pretty steep upward angle.
Lastly, I could tell you in a second whether or not a 9mm fired bullet came from a Glock or not. Anyone who's seen a bullet fired from a Glock knows that it looks VERY different from a bullet fired from a typical land & groove barrel.
So, the guy may have set the whole thing up, but he hasn't done anything that's going to prove he's faking it--at least not as far as I can see.
They recently made a local range put up a cover that would deflect rounds fired high enough to clear the berm back down into the ground. The cover doesn't have to go that far down the range if you work out the angles. It was either that or they were going to close him down.
A 9mm will most certainly go that far.
A 9mm will most certainly retain enough energy to penetrate a wall at that distance. I shoot airguns--650 fps is a typical STARTING velocity and the pellets are MUCH lighter than a 9mm bullet, and they will penetrate a surprising amount. 115 grains at 400-500fps will definitely make it through a light wall which is what a shake wall is.
I have seen shooters, especially new shooters, accidentally squeeze off a second round while the gun is in recoil. I had a coworker do this with my .44 mag revolver--I try not to think about where the bullet went.
I've also heard of autopistols doubling which typically results in the second round being fired at a pretty steep upward angle.
Lastly, I could tell you in a second whether or not a 9mm fired bullet came from a Glock or not. Anyone who's seen a bullet fired from a Glock knows that it looks VERY different from a bullet fired from a typical land & groove barrel.
So, the guy may have set the whole thing up, but he hasn't done anything that's going to prove he's faking it--at least not as far as I can see.
They recently made a local range put up a cover that would deflect rounds fired high enough to clear the berm back down into the ground. The cover doesn't have to go that far down the range if you work out the angles. It was either that or they were going to close him down.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Maybe the round did come from the range. As with the noted 90 foot bullet drop over the 2200 ft. distance, the bullet would not have traveled that far with a flat trajectory. So the bullet would have been launched over the berm like an artillery round. Taking the arc into consideration, that bullet would not have traveled all that far through the trees and vegetation of at all. It would have traveled OVER the trees and vegetation, at least over the majority of the distance. Depending on how close the vegetation is from the homeowner's home, it may have traveled through some of the vegetation if the vegetation is close, or through none of it.
For those who doubt 9 mm would travel that far, keep in mind that the Artillery Luger came with an 8" barrel and a rear sight calibrated to 800 meters.
One bothersome aspect of the damaged home (aside from there being no ballistics done on the bullet to compare it against the gun(s) the fireman was using) is that there is no indication that anyone checked the angle of the bullet's penetration holes. Determining the angle of entry could rule out the round coming from the range if the angle is 90 degrees off from the wall. There is no way a round from the range would have a flat trajectory.
One other bothersome aspect is that the bullet was said to have penetrated the wall about about 5' above the ground. That would be about the right height of where guns are commonly held for shooting while standing, say in your typical weaver, isoceles, or one-handed shooting. Coincidence?
For those who doubt 9 mm would travel that far, keep in mind that the Artillery Luger came with an 8" barrel and a rear sight calibrated to 800 meters.
One bothersome aspect of the damaged home (aside from there being no ballistics done on the bullet to compare it against the gun(s) the fireman was using) is that there is no indication that anyone checked the angle of the bullet's penetration holes. Determining the angle of entry could rule out the round coming from the range if the angle is 90 degrees off from the wall. There is no way a round from the range would have a flat trajectory.
One other bothersome aspect is that the bullet was said to have penetrated the wall about about 5' above the ground. That would be about the right height of where guns are commonly held for shooting while standing, say in your typical weaver, isoceles, or one-handed shooting. Coincidence?
C.R.Sam
Moderator Emeritus
My first post said that in light of the data presented......phony.
Not enough to work with but.
Thinkin at the keyboard.....
Was it a two car or single car garage;
If single car and bullet entered at 5" from ground and struck opposite wall at floor level.....after goin through wall and plastic....final angle would be around 22 degrees. With a slow bullet.
If double car then the angle would be around 12 degrees.
I think that at either reported distance, the final trajectory would be steeper.
Re keepin the rounds on the range.
I have shot at two outdoor handgun and rifle ranges that had overhead baffles that kept the rounds on the property....even from prone position.
El Monte Ca. and the international range at Chino Ca.
I am still leanin toward set up in the case of the wounded house.
Sam
Not enough to work with but.
Thinkin at the keyboard.....
Was it a two car or single car garage;
If single car and bullet entered at 5" from ground and struck opposite wall at floor level.....after goin through wall and plastic....final angle would be around 22 degrees. With a slow bullet.
If double car then the angle would be around 12 degrees.
I think that at either reported distance, the final trajectory would be steeper.
Re keepin the rounds on the range.
I have shot at two outdoor handgun and rifle ranges that had overhead baffles that kept the rounds on the property....even from prone position.
El Monte Ca. and the international range at Chino Ca.
I am still leanin toward set up in the case of the wounded house.
Sam
But Sam, and others who think it was a setup, why would Bob King, the home owner, have a couldn't-care-less attitude about it?
Like JohnKSa and the DNS, I have no doubt that a 9mm could easily go that far and do the damaged attributed to it. As far as the Glock ammo statement, we have to remember that the statement is that of a reporter twit (who probably wouldn't know a Glock from a clock) repeating the statements made to him/her by the police who did examine the bullet and could legitimately come to the conclusion they did.
As gun-fucious mentioned, almost precisely the same thing happened in this area. The range was at fault and fixed the problem. As I recall, the distance was even greater than the 700+ yards in this story.
It wasn't until the homeowner's association busybody got involved that the thing got blown out of proportion. (Gawd, I hate homeowner's associations. I've never heard of any good that comes out of them.)
Like JohnKSa and the DNS, I have no doubt that a 9mm could easily go that far and do the damaged attributed to it. As far as the Glock ammo statement, we have to remember that the statement is that of a reporter twit (who probably wouldn't know a Glock from a clock) repeating the statements made to him/her by the police who did examine the bullet and could legitimately come to the conclusion they did.
As gun-fucious mentioned, almost precisely the same thing happened in this area. The range was at fault and fixed the problem. As I recall, the distance was even greater than the 700+ yards in this story.
C.R.Sam
Moderator Emeritus
Mal....mayhap the homeowner not in on it. Could have been done by other with an agenda.
Lots of iffs n ands n mabys.
Sam
Lots of iffs n ands n mabys.
Sam
That's for dang sure. And we aren't gonna get any real answers from a newspaper article.
kenehsr
Member
Do you smell that???? I smell it.......Yep! Thats BS alright.
:banghead:
:banghead:
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