christcorp
Member
I'll take my chances with the additional 0.7seconds to take a 2nd squeeze. I like the odds.
Striker Fired Failure To Fire Poll
- Thread starter bg226
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I'll take my chances with the additional 0.7seconds to take a 2nd squeeze. I like the odds.
AKElroy
Member
I got occasional light strikes from my G27 w/ Wolf ammo; detail stripping & removing lint & dirt from the FP channel worked wonders. Who would have thought that was necessary after 7+ years of pocket carry?
Whatever manner you think is correct the firing pin channel on striker fired pistols get gunked up with time. It can and does cause light primer strikes. IMHO it is better to be safe than sorry. Just clean it at any interval you feel comfortable with.
Are we to infer that hammer-fired pistols do not have the same issue? Like, it's ok to pour oil in the firing pin channel of a hammer-fired pistol and never clean it out, because... IT'S A HAMMER, BABY!?
I've only had light strikes in 2 guns. Both were hammer-fired. But I had cut the mainsprings on both of them.
I've only had light strikes in 2 guns. Both were hammer-fired. But I had cut the mainsprings on both of them.
Full Metal Jacket
member
i voted yes. however, i've only had issues with my glock 19 and that pakistani surplus 9mm. it's old ammo that sometimes takes three strikes to ignite.
i now it's the ammo, but at the same time, not sure if hammer fired 9mm's would have the same issue with this ammo....
i now it's the ammo, but at the same time, not sure if hammer fired 9mm's would have the same issue with this ammo....
Full Metal Jacket
member
clear it. rack the slide and dump the offending round.
Major sidetrack here. But...
I personally wouldn't take my chances with that additional 0.7 seconds. But then again, I've had chance to experience plenty of light strikes with a DA pistol, but I've NEVER, not even ONCE had one that lit off on a second strike or even 3rd or 4th strike without repositioning the round in the chamber.
If you CAN rack and you pull the trigger, instead, that's like throwing a hail mary on 1st down with time left on the clock. If you REALLY don't have any time or ability to do anything other than pull the trigger again before the bear eats you, I'm betting the last thing you'll hear is "click!" And if fortune happens to unexpectedly feed you an additional 0.7 seconds.... oh boy. You COULD have tap/rack/banged. Now you have just enough time for a third click. Great!
I'm gonna tap/rack, even if I DON'T have time. If fortune doesn't give me the additional fraction of a second, and the bear eats me in the middle of a tap/rack, so be it. At least I tried. And I didn't die while acting out Einstein's definition of stupidity.
Flavored by my own experience, of course. If your guns and ammo like to fire on the second strike, then by all means do what you think is best.
Threatened with imminent death. You have a split second to defend yourself. You stop to scratch a lottery ticket?
I personally wouldn't take my chances with that additional 0.7 seconds. But then again, I've had chance to experience plenty of light strikes with a DA pistol, but I've NEVER, not even ONCE had one that lit off on a second strike or even 3rd or 4th strike without repositioning the round in the chamber.
If you CAN rack and you pull the trigger, instead, that's like throwing a hail mary on 1st down with time left on the clock. If you REALLY don't have any time or ability to do anything other than pull the trigger again before the bear eats you, I'm betting the last thing you'll hear is "click!" And if fortune happens to unexpectedly feed you an additional 0.7 seconds.... oh boy. You COULD have tap/rack/banged. Now you have just enough time for a third click. Great!
I'm gonna tap/rack, even if I DON'T have time. If fortune doesn't give me the additional fraction of a second, and the bear eats me in the middle of a tap/rack, so be it. At least I tried. And I didn't die while acting out Einstein's definition of stupidity.Flavored by my own experience, of course. If your guns and ammo like to fire on the second strike, then by all means do what you think is best.
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usp9
Member
That's the wierd thing about life...experiences differ. I've had dozens, perhaps scores of lightstrikes, and when able to restrike, they've all gone off. That's been my experience.
Some people want that feature, some don't. The point of the discussion is to have a quality gun and quality ammo so the chance is reduced... or carry a hammer fired gun and practically forget about the lightstrike problem.
christcorp
Member
Definitely my choice. I prefer my Sig P220, CZ-82, S&W 4003, or even my 1911A1. I have some single action striker fired pistold; HP, AMT, and XD. But those aren't going to be my carry weapon. No problem with home defense, tackle box, garage gun, etc... But for carrying, I always prefer a true double action, hammer, and double strike capability. And definitely why I would never own a glock. If I did somehow end up with a glock, it would fall in with the other single actions that I mentioned. NOT FOR CARRY USE.
My Glock has always been 100%. I got an extra power firing pin spring right after I got it though. I have a buddy with a G37 and his has always fired fine with the stock firing pin spring, so I don't know. I think the stock firing pin springs would be fine.
So, USP9 and other second-strike adherents, which drill do you perform when you have a click type failure to fire?
Do you automatically assume the problem is a hard primer, so you do a "bang" drill, which involves only pulling the trigger again, 99% confident that it will go bang this time? And do you even NEED to shoot anymore, or is the threat already gone by this time, cuz things can change fast in life/death situations!?
Or do you do a "click-tap-rack" drill, realizing that there are other causes for this failure (no round in chamber or a totally dud round), but take it into consideration that the click might actually go bang, so you have to take just as much care in aiming/releasing that click, knowing full well you're responsible for the bullet if it actually leaves the barrel this time? Hmmm, if you're ingraining the reflex to automatically pull the trigger in case of failure, doesn't this override the imminent need to restrain from firing rounds that aren't necessary? See where I'm going? The tap-rack-bang drill is all about immediately and reflexively restoring your gun to a ready state as quickly as possible, and the "bang" is the last part which doesn't actually occur unless it's needed. Despite whether the decision is made to fire or not, the gun HAS been made ready with a tap-rack drill. While tapping and racking, you are observing, reassessing, AND making your gun ready, all at the same time. While aiming and pulling a trigger for a possible second strike, you are hopefully concentrating on your front sight - and hopefully, not in a complete waste of time.
Can you even differentiate the click failure from a different failure to fire (such as hammer not falling at all, oob, etc) under life and death duress? Would you universally pull the trigger twice, or do you automatically differentiate between these types of failure?
I.E:
FTF:
decide, did the hammer fall normally?
if so, proceed to pull trigger again
if not, then tap-rack
.... etc.
I'm of the thinking that during an intense situation like this, you don't want to have to assess and react to unpredictable outcomes. As soon as a FTF situation is RECOGNIZED (might be a good while AFTER it actually occurs, depending on training/situation), I want to restore readiness as quickly as possible. Heck, I might have been standing there, unwittingly fanning the trigger 3-4 times before coming to any understanding of my situation at all, because all I can see is my life flash before my eyes. After finally coming to grips with one unexpected event (the FTF), my ideal response isn't to immediately introduce another unpredictable event.
Even if it DOES fire, you might even screw up and proceed to tap rack because you were actually expecting a click and had starting the motion, already? Is this an unrealistic complaint? Well the tap-rack drill has to be practiced to be effective. You don't consciously decide before you pull the trigger, "hey, if it goes click, I'll tap-rack." It becomes reflexive. If you choose to make a conscious decision based on the results of each and every trigger pull, then it probably won't work as well. E.g."Ok, I heard a click. That was the first click. I'll pull the trigger again." Then either "Ok, that was the second click in succession, so now I'll tap-rack." Or "it fired this time, so no tap-rack needed."
I'm not trying to be assinine. I really want to know your thoughts on this and to have a good debate. Specifically, what sort of simple universal response algorhithm can you come up with that utilizes second-strike in the most beneficial manner? The best I can think up is that you respond with tap-rack only after consciously having 2 FTF in a row. And that seems pretty lame and doomed for failure under stress.
Do you automatically assume the problem is a hard primer, so you do a "bang" drill, which involves only pulling the trigger again, 99% confident that it will go bang this time? And do you even NEED to shoot anymore, or is the threat already gone by this time, cuz things can change fast in life/death situations!?
Or do you do a "click-tap-rack" drill, realizing that there are other causes for this failure (no round in chamber or a totally dud round), but take it into consideration that the click might actually go bang, so you have to take just as much care in aiming/releasing that click, knowing full well you're responsible for the bullet if it actually leaves the barrel this time? Hmmm, if you're ingraining the reflex to automatically pull the trigger in case of failure, doesn't this override the imminent need to restrain from firing rounds that aren't necessary? See where I'm going? The tap-rack-bang drill is all about immediately and reflexively restoring your gun to a ready state as quickly as possible, and the "bang" is the last part which doesn't actually occur unless it's needed. Despite whether the decision is made to fire or not, the gun HAS been made ready with a tap-rack drill. While tapping and racking, you are observing, reassessing, AND making your gun ready, all at the same time. While aiming and pulling a trigger for a possible second strike, you are hopefully concentrating on your front sight - and hopefully, not in a complete waste of time.
Can you even differentiate the click failure from a different failure to fire (such as hammer not falling at all, oob, etc) under life and death duress? Would you universally pull the trigger twice, or do you automatically differentiate between these types of failure?
I.E:
FTF:
decide, did the hammer fall normally?
if so, proceed to pull trigger again
if not, then tap-rack
.... etc.
I'm of the thinking that during an intense situation like this, you don't want to have to assess and react to unpredictable outcomes. As soon as a FTF situation is RECOGNIZED (might be a good while AFTER it actually occurs, depending on training/situation), I want to restore readiness as quickly as possible. Heck, I might have been standing there, unwittingly fanning the trigger 3-4 times before coming to any understanding of my situation at all, because all I can see is my life flash before my eyes. After finally coming to grips with one unexpected event (the FTF), my ideal response isn't to immediately introduce another unpredictable event.
Even if it DOES fire, you might even screw up and proceed to tap rack because you were actually expecting a click and had starting the motion, already? Is this an unrealistic complaint? Well the tap-rack drill has to be practiced to be effective. You don't consciously decide before you pull the trigger, "hey, if it goes click, I'll tap-rack." It becomes reflexive. If you choose to make a conscious decision based on the results of each and every trigger pull, then it probably won't work as well. E.g."Ok, I heard a click. That was the first click. I'll pull the trigger again." Then either "Ok, that was the second click in succession, so now I'll tap-rack." Or "it fired this time, so no tap-rack needed."
I'm not trying to be assinine. I really want to know your thoughts on this and to have a good debate. Specifically, what sort of simple universal response algorhithm can you come up with that utilizes second-strike in the most beneficial manner? The best I can think up is that you respond with tap-rack only after consciously having 2 FTF in a row. And that seems pretty lame and doomed for failure under stress.
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usp9
Member
I'm not debating anything, nor am I a singleminded adherant to a certain training regimen, however I will share my thoughts on the subject. Be mindful that one's experiences and skills and needs all differ. Train, carry, prepare or practice in whatever manner you feel comfy.
* Double strike is a very useful feature for certain guns. It may be one only option available to you.
* Most people will react to a "Click", with another pull of the trigger. They will do this naturally and they will do it quickly, even people that frequently practice not doing this will do it I believe. If it works, fine, if not, you're no worse off. If the gun has no restrike capability, then you're out of luck.
* It is a personally held belief that a malfunctioning gun is best replaced with a functioning gun...no matter what the malfunction, because that solves the malfunction without wasting time. I don't believe practicing fixing a malfunctioning gun is a real life, viable solution for most people.
* Were I working, not retired and enjoying life, I would practice the drill I have the most confidence in...pull my backup and commence shooting. Now that I am retired, I carry one gun, one mag and the firm belief that if I need it it will either work or it won't. Having been in several firearms incidents perhaps I've developed a certain fatalistic outlook, but I just haven't known of, been involved in, or even read about any gun fights successfully concluded after doing any type of repair to a broken gun.
I think you are better served carrying a very high quality firearm (or two), with a low probability of failure, and being a proficient shot, rather than being a really quick gunsmith.
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I agree with your outlook, in general. But I disagree with your comparison of clearing a simple jam/misfire as akin to being a gunsmith.
I'm sure there are a lot of instances where knowing how to clear a jam has saved a life. The first time I had a jam, I looked stupidly at my gun for 10 seconds while deciding what to do with it. Now, I just tap-rack. And if you've ever seen a competent shooter clear a jam during a timed shooting sport, I don't see how you can have that opinion. With a little practice it becomes instant, fluid, and second-nature. Probably faster than drawing a second weapon in most cases, and >98% likely to be effective, considering the less common types of jams where it will not work.
I'd be much more interested in hearing about a story where a second-strike capability saved someone's life!
With a quality gun, most jams are due to ammo, and they're not that uncommon. If you'd rather second strike or pull BUG than tap-rack, I bet you love revolvers!
Also, I hope that if you ever do have a jam, you don't resort to going for a BUG that is no longer there, and possibly dropping your only gun in the process!
I'm sure there are a lot of instances where knowing how to clear a jam has saved a life. The first time I had a jam, I looked stupidly at my gun for 10 seconds while deciding what to do with it. Now, I just tap-rack. And if you've ever seen a competent shooter clear a jam during a timed shooting sport, I don't see how you can have that opinion. With a little practice it becomes instant, fluid, and second-nature. Probably faster than drawing a second weapon in most cases, and >98% likely to be effective, considering the less common types of jams where it will not work.
I'd be much more interested in hearing about a story where a second-strike capability saved someone's life!
With a quality gun, most jams are due to ammo, and they're not that uncommon. If you'd rather second strike or pull BUG than tap-rack, I bet you love revolvers!
Also, I hope that if you ever do have a jam, you don't resort to going for a BUG that is no longer there, and possibly dropping your only gun in the process!
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christcorp
Member
GLOOB; your argument, while it may appear logical to you, is a straw man argument. With your same logic, I would tell you then that a Double Action Revolver is the BEST pistol for self defense. TRUE Double Action capability. Point and Click. Don't have to worry about mis-feeds, is the chamber loaded, soft firing pin hit, hard primer, etc... If it goes click and it doesn't fire, simply pull again. It does EVERYTHING you claim to do with a tap, rack, and prepare to fire drill. Except with a true double action revolver, it's done in probably 1/4th the time. After all, you did say: "cuz things can change fast in life/death situations!"
For me, the pistol is simply a tool. If you think of a gun as ANYTHING more than a tool, and that it's YOU that will protect or not protect your life, then you will have trouble eventually. And personally, probably deserve it. We, as gun owners, have argued with the anti's for years that GUNS don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people. Well guess what? GUN DON'T SAVE people, PEOPLE SAVE people. The gun is simply a tool. As such, I ensure that the "tool" is in as good a shape as it can possibly be when the time comes that I might need to use it to assist me in a task. If the tool fails, I have trained for alternate means. Can I train for every scenario? Nope, no way in hell. But as soon as you realize that it's up to YOU to defend yourself, and NOT THE GUN, then you've already won more than half the battle. Then, it doesn't matter if the gun fails or not. But if you are relying on a gun to save your life, your faith is in the wrong hands. A gun is mechanical. It WILL FAIL. When is the only question. Now, when it does fail, you can stand there panicking and figuring out what to do next. Or, you can do what you already knew you would do if the gun failed. It's up to you. And of course the Rambo types will talk about their "BUG" that they have. They can't even say "backup gun". They have to sound the part. Strong side, weak side, bug, etc... The vocabulary is great. But even they are putting their faith, confidence, and life in a piece of machinery. Me personally, I'll put my life and faith in my own hands, mind, and decisions.
Anyway, you are most definitely free to carry a pistol any way you choose. You can tap/rack/fire if you want. I've never said a person shouldn't. I've simply said that I prefer a true double action with 2nd strike capability so if pulling the trigger is what I choose to do, then I have that choice. Some here however DON'T WANT A CHOICE. Yet, these same people will argue that they have a glock and a 17 round magazine, and a spare, JUST IN CASE. They admit that a defensive situation probably will never have more than 3 rounds fired. Yet, their argument is that they want to have the capability, JUST IN CASE. Yet, they argue with people who want a true double action with 2nd strike capabilities, JUST IN CASE. This has nothing to do with hypocrisy. It has to do with people seeing only their perspective without even realizing that the reasons they give for some arguments, go against their reason for other arguments.
I'll take my Sig p220, cz-82, and others. I use the decocker after loading. I'll have a true Single action/double action pistol. And if for whatever reason the first round doesn't fire, I'll have the "OPTION" of a 2nd trigger pull if I want it. If I decide to tap/rack/fire, then I'll have that option available to me too. But the gun is simply a tool. I will DECIDE at the time what I will do. Maybe it's what we discussed here. Maybe it's turning and running. Maybe it's putting my foot on the gas and taking off. I'll take care of protecting and possibly saving my life and that of those near me. Not the gun.
For me, the pistol is simply a tool. If you think of a gun as ANYTHING more than a tool, and that it's YOU that will protect or not protect your life, then you will have trouble eventually. And personally, probably deserve it. We, as gun owners, have argued with the anti's for years that GUNS don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people. Well guess what? GUN DON'T SAVE people, PEOPLE SAVE people. The gun is simply a tool. As such, I ensure that the "tool" is in as good a shape as it can possibly be when the time comes that I might need to use it to assist me in a task. If the tool fails, I have trained for alternate means. Can I train for every scenario? Nope, no way in hell. But as soon as you realize that it's up to YOU to defend yourself, and NOT THE GUN, then you've already won more than half the battle. Then, it doesn't matter if the gun fails or not. But if you are relying on a gun to save your life, your faith is in the wrong hands. A gun is mechanical. It WILL FAIL. When is the only question. Now, when it does fail, you can stand there panicking and figuring out what to do next. Or, you can do what you already knew you would do if the gun failed. It's up to you. And of course the Rambo types will talk about their "BUG" that they have. They can't even say "backup gun". They have to sound the part. Strong side, weak side, bug, etc... The vocabulary is great. But even they are putting their faith, confidence, and life in a piece of machinery. Me personally, I'll put my life and faith in my own hands, mind, and decisions.
Anyway, you are most definitely free to carry a pistol any way you choose. You can tap/rack/fire if you want. I've never said a person shouldn't. I've simply said that I prefer a true double action with 2nd strike capability so if pulling the trigger is what I choose to do, then I have that choice. Some here however DON'T WANT A CHOICE. Yet, these same people will argue that they have a glock and a 17 round magazine, and a spare, JUST IN CASE. They admit that a defensive situation probably will never have more than 3 rounds fired. Yet, their argument is that they want to have the capability, JUST IN CASE. Yet, they argue with people who want a true double action with 2nd strike capabilities, JUST IN CASE. This has nothing to do with hypocrisy. It has to do with people seeing only their perspective without even realizing that the reasons they give for some arguments, go against their reason for other arguments.
I'll take my Sig p220, cz-82, and others. I use the decocker after loading. I'll have a true Single action/double action pistol. And if for whatever reason the first round doesn't fire, I'll have the "OPTION" of a 2nd trigger pull if I want it. If I decide to tap/rack/fire, then I'll have that option available to me too. But the gun is simply a tool. I will DECIDE at the time what I will do. Maybe it's what we discussed here. Maybe it's turning and running. Maybe it's putting my foot on the gas and taking off. I'll take care of protecting and possibly saving my life and that of those near me. Not the gun.
I agree there's nothing wrong with having the OPTION, as long as you never even think about utilizing it unless no other option exists in an SD situation. I mean, it shouldn't be a decision, at all, just a last resort cuz there's nothing left to do. Yes, a second strike could possibly save your life one day. But that is about as likely as being struck by lightning. So, yes, you can tout it as an important feature... right up there with what color the finish is.
I have a DA/SA gun, too. And even at the range, I don't mull over this decision. I rack the durn thing and I'm done with it. If you decide to decide, even while plinking, then you will lose time in an SD situation. So in that respect, yes, you might be at a disadvantage if your gun has second strike capability and you fall into bad habits.
A DA revolver has, indeed, the best manual of arms. Pull trigger. If that fails, pull trigger. That's it. It undeniably has the best manual of arms if you exclude the reloading portion. That doesn't make it the best SD gun for everyone, because of other factors including recoil, ergonomics, concealability, capacity, and reloading speed.
You're making my argument for me. I will hopefully do a tap-rack without even blinking, because that's what I try to do in practice. In addition to the inevitability of a gun failing, it will fail in many ways - a huge variety of which will be cured with a tap-rack, including the one rare failure that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be fixed with a second strike and which is impossible to differentiate from other types of failure which will definitely NEVER be fixed with a second strike (and yet will also be fixed with a tap-rack). The more options (of questionable benefit, no less) you give yourself, the more likely you'll stand there panicking while deciding what to do.
Also, to be totally honest, I don't really practice tap-rack. I just rack. I always double check to make sure my mags are seated properly when I insert them, and hopefully that will be good enough. Tap-rack just sounds cooler.
I have a DA/SA gun, too. And even at the range, I don't mull over this decision. I rack the durn thing and I'm done with it. If you decide to decide, even while plinking, then you will lose time in an SD situation. So in that respect, yes, you might be at a disadvantage if your gun has second strike capability and you fall into bad habits.
A DA revolver has, indeed, the best manual of arms. Pull trigger. If that fails, pull trigger. That's it. It undeniably has the best manual of arms if you exclude the reloading portion. That doesn't make it the best SD gun for everyone, because of other factors including recoil, ergonomics, concealability, capacity, and reloading speed.
You're making my argument for me. I will hopefully do a tap-rack without even blinking, because that's what I try to do in practice. In addition to the inevitability of a gun failing, it will fail in many ways - a huge variety of which will be cured with a tap-rack, including the one rare failure that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be fixed with a second strike and which is impossible to differentiate from other types of failure which will definitely NEVER be fixed with a second strike (and yet will also be fixed with a tap-rack). The more options (of questionable benefit, no less) you give yourself, the more likely you'll stand there panicking while deciding what to do.
Also, to be totally honest, I don't really practice tap-rack. I just rack. I always double check to make sure my mags are seated properly when I insert them, and hopefully that will be good enough. Tap-rack just sounds cooler.
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philbo
Member
Yes I have seen both XD's & Glocks fail more than once, and always the result of incorrect cleaning and/or reassembly of the pistol after detail stripping the firearm. User error, not the pistols fault.
REAPER4206969
Member
There are no schools that teach second strike for failures. People who train to pull the trigger again will will simply keep pulling it until they are killed.
2ndamd
Member
Yes, all guns have a falure to fire from time-to-time. Even a GP100 with an extremely heavy spring will encounter a weird primer every now and then.
Beretta 92 in a dept I worked near had a FTF and the officer pulled the trigger again and bang! End of conflict. At least that is what we were told. I was not there to validate that is what happen but, it is widely accepted that it did happen that way.
Beretta 92 in a dept I worked near had a FTF and the officer pulled the trigger again and bang! End of conflict. At least that is what we were told. I was not there to validate that is what happen but, it is widely accepted that it did happen that way.
ATBackPackin
Member
Nadda, but I only own one striker fired pistol. A Kahr CW9 and I have over 1000 rounds through it with zero failures.
Shawn
Shawn
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