Student needs help with anti 2a prof.....

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Forget linguistic and Constitutional arguments for a moment. Instead, consider the idea of inalienable sovereign rights.

One of the founding principles of the United Sates is “that all Men are created equal.…†This principle has been enshrined legally and is known as equal protection under the law. Philosophically and legally, therefore, no one should have special rights in the United States.

So what are sovereign rights? A sovereign individual is independent from other individuals, having complete authority over his own life. In other words, he owns himself and is free to determine his own destiny. By comparison, the United States of America, as a sovereign nation-state, own its own territory and is idependent from other states.

Historically, however, individuals were not always treated as sovereign beings. In fact, they were often divided into different ranks, classes, or castes. These groups did not have equal rights. The “commoners†had few, if any, rights, while the “nobles†enjoyed many rights and privileges.

One of these “noble†rights was the right to keep and bear arms. Outside of military service, which was usually conscripted at that, commoners were forbidden weapons. In fact, it was this monopoly on arms that allowed the nobles to maintain their control over the vastly more numerous commoners. Thus, by force of arms, the nobles could deny the commoners of any freedom at a whim—including freedoms we now consider sovereign human rights. Disarmed, the commoners lacked the means to resist tyranny, and therefore tyranny remained the normal state of human affairs for thousands of years.

When the United States of America was established, as the first democratic republic of the modern era, its founders took an unprecedented step. They declared “that all Men are created equal†and eliminated the legal distinction between “commoner†and “noble.†Americans would be equal before the law, enjoying equal rights and privileges.

Setting aside this history for a moment, though, let’s return to the idea of a sovereign nation-state. No one would deny that a nation-state has the right to defend itself and its interests through the use of armed force. However, if the state derives its authority from its sovereign citizens, its citizens must share this right. If we fail to recognize this fact, then we must also accept that our “freedom†is no more than a house of cards, as the state would have the power and, indeed, the legal authority to deny its subjects of any rights or privileges.

However, the Founders also provided us with a saving grace. They recognized that sovereign rights are inalienable. They can neither be surrendered nor taken away. We have these rights—among them, the right to arms—even when they are suppressed by a tyrannical regime. The only just way to suppress an individual citizen’s rights is through due process of law.

This brings us full circle, back to the U.S. Constitution. The 14th Amendment to that document says: “No State shall … deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.†In short, we have no special classes of citizen (equal protection), and persons may be deprived of their rights only on an individual basis (due process).

To declare that a broad category of citizens does not have a right to arms or to free expression or to privacy is to reject the idea of inalienable sovereign rights. It is to deny that humans are independent, self-governing beings. It is to accept that tyranny and all its potential abuses are morally and legally justified. It is to embrace slavery, discrimination, and genocide. It is to agree, finally, that might makes right.

In the end, rights are an all-or-nothing affair. If you allow even one to be infringed, you must accept that all will be diminished. Rights may be abused, but to prevent that abuse by suppressing the right is to invite the abuses of tyranny in its place. The right to keep and bear arms is especially important in this respect, because it is the one right that gives common citizens the effective means to resist tyranny, whether at the hand of the petty criminal or the despotic state.

~G. Fink
 
Here's why Beth can't call the "arrogant jerk" an "arrogant jerk."

Beth is a high school student. Arrogant jerk is her teacher.

If she calls the arrogant jerk an arrogant jerk, then the arrogant jerk will make her time in his class a living hell.

If this arrogant jerk is so insecure that he has to resort to shouting down high schoolers who don't toe his party line (think about that for a second) then he is so insecure that even pointing out his lack of reasoning will be to invite his childish wrath.

Beth should look him up after she graduates and call him an arrogant jerk to his face, if she likes. Maybe even leave a flaming bag full of doggie doo on his front porch.....Or, get him a subscription to a Swedish kiddie porn mag, but have it delivered to the door just down the street with his name on it.......not that I would ever advocate doing anything patently illegal........

But the simple, tactically sound truth is that while she is in his class, and her grade is under his control, she shouldn't take him on in open combat.

Use facts, reason, and be always polite. But don't call him an arrogant jerk.

hillbilly
 
Skunk, that is simply childish, that would be like going down to the post office and filling out a change of address form and sending all his mail to afganistan, that would just be wrong.
 
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

That's the firebrand Patrick Henry. He makes no mention of state governments, nor of standing armies (like the National Guard), which the Founding Fathers regarded with as much liking as for a snake in a bedroll.

The United States Code of Law narrows the definition somewhat, but not overly so:

"The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17
years of age..."

~~Title 10, Section 311 of the U.S. Code.

Note that the U.S.C. doesn't say "as maintained by state government" or any other nonsense—it's an unequivocal statement of all able-bodied males.

Oh, and one more thing about that pesky first phrase: "regulated" does not mean "beset by rules and laws". In 18th-century English, "regulated" meant "trained and equipped", in other words, ready for action. Hell, we've even lost that because of the abolition of the military draft.


Now for the next phrase of note, the "security of a free State" one. Note that security of a free State does not just mean of the country as a whole—but by using that other pesky word, "free",the Founders made it plain that the whole concept of a free state is that which requires security. It doesn't just mean a state free from Nazi tyranny, for example, but also a state inherently free,
from its own government if necessary.
How do I know they meant that? Let's roll the tape, Simon:
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is no
recourse left but in the exertion of the original right of self-defense which is
paramount to all forms of positive government."

-- Alexander Hamilton.

Need another?

"No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the
people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

Thomas Jefferson.

And one last one:

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the
defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense."

-- John Adams.

Those phrases make the blood of government lackeys run cold, or rather, they should.

Now for the penultimate phrase: "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". Not just "the people who can afford to buy a gun license", or "only the police," or "only Mayor Daley's bodyguards"—it says, "the people" without qualification. Can't be much plainer than that really… except perhaps for the last phrase: "shall not be infringed." Note carefully that the Second does not say, "Congress shall not" or "government shall not" or "Mayor Daley shall not". The use of the passive voice is quite intentional: it is a clear, universal statement that the right to keep and bear arms cannot be circumscribed, by anyone or by any institution. It is, of course, no coincidence that the right to have guns is one of the earlier freedoms outlined in the Bill of Rights. Without guns in the hands of the people, all the other freedoms are easily negated by the State. If you disagree with that statement, ask yourself if the Nazis could have gassed millions of Jews, had the Jews been armed with rifles and pistols—there weren't enough SS troops to do the job. Lest we forget, in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of 1944, a couple of hundred Jews armed with rifles and homemade explosive devices held off two fully-equipped German divisions (actually about 8,000 men) for nearly two months. Using the Germans during the First World War as another example, the thing that caused German officers and their troops most concern was the appearance of francs-tireurs: individual citizens who, from their homes and villages, shot at and killed German officers and soldiers as the Fourth Army made its way through Belgium. The Germans considered this form of fighting
to be completely at odds with the rules of warfare, and began to slaughter civilian hostages as reprisals. Why was the mighty Fourth Army (of some six million men) so afraid of a few irregular snipers? Because they knew that they could never defend against a million pinpricks—their morale would suffer, and they'd spend all their time policing the Belgian countryside, instead of
invading France and fighting the French Army.
I take my civic responsibility very seriously. I am the epitome of the franc-tireur: a man who would defend his country from invasion, who can use a gun, and who would not hesitate to risk his life in its use. I suspect that, if the chips were down, there may be another seven-odd million
men like myself in the United States.

This country will never be conquered militarily—and it has nothing to do with our Armed Forces, because they are just the first line of defense. The rest, the militia, are more than a match for any army, at any time—as long as we still have our guns.
And one last word on the subject: the next politician who assures me that he's not going to go after my hunting rifle with his latest "reasonable" gun law, is going to get a punch right in the face.

The Second Amendment isn't about hunting, buddy. Don't insult me by thinking I'll swallow that lie.

Perhaps the best statement I've heard about "government vs. citizens" with regard to the gun issue came from a politician, Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp of Texas, who said "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of."

Finally, I'm going to shut up and roll the credits, quotes of people who have said it, all far more eloquently than I, and who can explain the original intent of the Second, because they wrote it:

Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison all understood the importance of private gun ownership in a free society.

Jefferson:
"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." (in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy p. 20, S. Padover ed., 1939)

Adams:
"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the
defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense."
Hamilton:
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is no
recourse left but in the exertion of the original right of self-defense which is
paramount to all forms of positive government."
And Hamilton again:
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be
properly armed."

Madison (in Federalist No. 46, predicting that encroachments by the federal government) said that these would provoke "plans of resistance" and an "appeal to the trial of force." Madison also said (still in Fed. No. 46):
"[T]he advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to
which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed,
forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than
any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the
military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried
as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
And Thomas Paine:
"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other
hand, arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in
awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance
would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike;
but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside...Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them..."
Thoughts on Defensive War in 1775

While Tench Coxe said:

"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other
terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The
unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state
government, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the
people."

(Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788)

While we're about it, let's also quote again another of the great men, Patrick Henry,
commenting on the Second Amendment in 1788:

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who
approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright
force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that
every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."

And another from Mr. Henry:

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we
cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between
having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under
the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those
arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety
to us, as in our own hands?"

(3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia,
1836)

Even the British used to have the right idea (they don't nowadays):

"No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people. The
possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. He, who
has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him,
whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own
master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself,
and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion."


James Burgh (Political Disquisitions: Or, an Enquiry into Public Errors, Defects,
and Abuses) [London, 1774-1775]

Some more modern quotes:

"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary
government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears
remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible."

-- Senator Hubert H. Humphrey (D-MN)
rk
 
i think if it were me i would not continue the discussion in class as it takes up the time that is meant for Econ class. that is not entirely fair to the other students to take up their time with a personal debate not relating to the subject.

OR, poll the class to see if they would mind if you take a day of their calss to challenge the teacher to a debate in the class for a day. ask the class to vote at the end of the debate on who was more convincing. structure it into 5 minute segments between the two of you.

if that doesn't fly, do some research and use the excellent resources posted by others here on the board and write a report of sorts outlining Supreme Court decsions, collection of quotes from the founding fathers, her misunderstnding of teh word "People" and double standard of its use, and a personal argument at the end. lay it on her desk as you walk out of class one day. see what happens.

track down the reporters from your school newspaper and see if you can talk them into a story of teachers imposing their political views on their students instead of teaching critical thinking and decision making like they are supposed to.

talk to the princiapl and state that you do not go there to get insulted and belittled in front of the class.

just my opinions.

Bobby
 
Hillbilly,understood, this is a prudent course of action,but I see that Bobarino has some good ideas too;

track down the reporters from your school newspaper and see if you can talk them into a story of teachers imposing their political views on their students instead of teaching critical thinking and decision making like they are supposed to.

maybe a visit to the school superintendant is in order
 
Beth-

Those who can do! Those who can't ..... teach!

While there are exceptions to this rule..it usually fits. Seems more fitting in college than anywhere else. College profs. are insulated from the real word and have NEVER had to produce anything but publications and grants. For a system that is supposed to educate and encourage thinking it really seems to piss em off when your thinking doesn't jive with the party line..so to speak. I had a similar problem with a Psyc. prof one semester, I aced every quiz, project, and test, as he was handing back our last project the week before finals, he said something to the effect... "I see you must have learned something in my class." My reply was something like "sir your right I did learn 1 thing in your class.....how to tolerate an arrogant old bastard. I only wrote a B on the final but still aced his class. Point being if nothing else you learn to work around people who have no vision, and can't begin to grasp what is REALLY going on.

Don't let the Bastards get ya down!
 
There has been a lot of twaddle bandied about in recent years that the prefatory words “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State…†somehow indicate that “the right of the people to keep and bear arms†is not an individual right, as in the First and Fourth Amendments, but a “collective†right. Nothing could be more false. As Roy Copperud, author of “American Usage and Style: The Consensus†and a member of the “American Heritage Dictionary†usage panel, has pointed out:

The words “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State…†constitute a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying “militia,†which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject “the right,†verb “shallâ€). The right to keep and bear arms is asserted as essential for maintaining a militia… The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere by others than the people… The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.

The Framers of the Constitution were highly educated men and masters of the English language; they knew exactly what they were saying.

-- G. Gordon Liddy, "When I Was a Kid, This Was a Free Country"
 
THANK YOU

THANK YOU
by Beth

THANK YOU TO ALL WHO HAVE HELPED ME WITH THIS.. I FEEL NOW THAT I AM ARMED TO SHOOT DOWN HIS ARGUEMENTS..


THANKS
BETH


========


I asked her to let usknow how it goes............ let you know if I hear anything...........
 
Beth,

Sorry to hear about your situation. Anti professors are unbeleivably difficult to deal with, and even harder to sit through class with.

But let me give you a little advice: Don't bother trying to shoot down the teacher's arguments. IT WON'T GET YOU ANYWHERE. Most teachers don't live in the real world (or at least they don't work in it), and arguing about such a hot topic as gun rights will only inflame an already irritated situation.

My best suggestion for now is to grit your teeth, just say, "I disagree," and let it ride. It will be much more beneficial for your grades.

I know it's tough to deal with. I've sure had more than my share of idiot teachers. Be strong!

Wes
 
I feel for you. I have an anti professor as well, but he at least has the decency to respect different opinions other than his own. I am constantly amazed how the political leanings of professors seems to be so one sided.

Its obvious this guy is not using reason. You could rub his nose in the fact that he's wrong, but his mind probably wouldn't be changed and your grade might take a turn for the worse.

That said, if he yells at you again I think an administrator should be informed that he is harrassing students.

Good Luck!
 
If he insists that it is only for the 'militia' and he thinks that the militia is the National Guard, remind him that the NG was not formed for more than 100 years after the ratification of the 2nd. Also include the real definition of the militia:

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 >
Sec. 311. - Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia
 
"...when i got a degree in political science we would talk."

I've got one. History, too. Having a piece(s) of paper doesn't change the issue or (necessarily) the quality of an arguement, merely the sources cited in the course of an arguement. Reliance on these mere bits of paper and not the alleged learning behind them for the substance of a discussion is an indicator that the party in question is undeserving of theirs.

So far as your teacher goes, he is exhibiting conduct unbecoming of a professional in any category, nevermind his profession, and his behavior is undoubtedly inappropriate for a classroom enviroment. As to the veracity of your teachers position, that has been well answered.
 
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