What I think the other poster was saying was some people think even sweeping an unloaded gun in slide lock breaks the (never point a gun...) rule whereas others don't. I've met many that bang the drum of "safety" more for their ego than anything else. Honestly, I tend to have more concerns with know-it-alls, and the "it won't ever happen to me" people, than anything else.
Stupid mistakes and private ranges
- Thread starter Atom Smasher
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What I think the other poster was saying was some people think even sweeping an unloaded gun in slide lock breaks the (never point a gun...) rule whereas others don't. I've met many that bang the drum of "safety" more for their ego than anything else. Honestly, I tend to have more concerns with know-it-alls, and the "it won't ever happen to me" people, than anything else.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Naah. But the OP might have felt that HE was too uptight to have fun there that day!
They've got a proceedure for a safety introduction/induction. That makes some sense. Sounds like the RO gave him lots of good advice and helped him get through the process.
Heck, many of the shooting events I attend have very strict rules (they HAVE to!) and we still have about as much fun on the range as we can stand!
Relax, learn good safety habits*, and enjoy getting to know your new club. Chances are, you'll be the one giving a safety briefing soon enough!
(* -- Remember, you SHOULDN'T feel comfortable on the range if you or anyone else is breaking the safety rules. When you've built the habits of safety into your brain, you'll feel decidely NOT at ease when you see a dangerous situation and will move instantly to cease fire and/or fix it. That saves lives!)
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
More specifically, an unloaded gun in slide lock in the case, not being handled.
If the gun's in your hands, you'd better have perfect muzzle discipline at all times!
Grmlin
Member
Finger straight and off the trigger (ie. outside the trigger gaurd). I was taught by some of the strictest instructer starting with my father then Marine Corps Drill Instructers and range personel. Straight accross the gaurd or above it's the same just personal preferance. As far as removing your finger from the trigger between shots if thats your style and works for you so what unless you have to do quick follow up shots it shouldn't be an issue. Mercy had nothing to do with it. I've been to civilian ranges that the supposed RO was a complete idiot and were the worst safety offenders. Don't let it bother you.
W.E.G.
Member
OP did NOT commit a safety violation if he did not handle the weapon when the case was opened.
TITAN308
Member
So the gun is empty, the slide was locked back, his finger was off the trigger, the gun is laying there not even in anyone's hand.
Exactly what do you think is going to happen?
If you say you've never muzzled anything with an empty gun or while cleaning it you are a liar.
I am hoping the person I quoted merely misread what the OP had posted, if not I wouldn't want to be at his range or near him.
"OMG your gun canted 2 degrees from a straight forward position down range! Violation! Violation!"
David E
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IF he fully opened the case to fully expose the gun and it happened to be pointing at anyone, (I still wonder how that would happen on the firing line,) but rotate the case before touching the gun.
But if the OP unzipped the case and pulls it out pointing it at someone, end of interview.
The OP hasn't clarified the issue.
But if the OP unzipped the case and pulls it out pointing it at someone, end of interview.
The OP hasn't clarified the issue.
Atom Smasher
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Here is the setup. The firing line is essentially a wooden bench about 4 feet tall. I place my bag onto said bench. RO leans on his elbow on the bench to my left, watching me unpack my gun. I pull out the case, which unclasps from the front like a suitcase. I open the case from the front, leaving the weapon in the case, unloaded, slide locked back. The gun is now exposed, but untouched in the case, and is pointed at the RO's center mass because he is leaning on the bench. He stops me, we talk, and then we continue. I never touched the weapon period.
TITAN308
Member
Yea sorry David, I think most people understood what he was saying (he has now clarified).
The original sentence in the original post said:
I don't think it needed clarification. But ok...
The original sentence in the original post said:
I don't think it needed clarification. But ok...
Claude Clay
Member
well, the RO comes up short on people skills. long on self-ego though. as an aside-- i do, as you have heard that many of us have a system of packing items such that we are aware of muzzle direction. one of those small things that is easy to do and avoids a 'ooops' moment. the trigger finger high up on the slide just is a good all around habit but not for him to correct you unless he was to follow up with an explaination...cause it prevents the finger getting twisted by the holster when the gun is re-holstered, which may get the finger pushed inside the trigger guard causing the glock to fire. otherwise some refer to it as 'glock leg'
and as for keeping the finger in contact with the face of the trigger---same thing, with an explanation it flys ok. it allows you to move the POI left or right without guessing how much is a little if you need to make corrections.
go back and have safe fun. possibly avoid him but be nice anyways.
and as for keeping the finger in contact with the face of the trigger---same thing, with an explanation it flys ok. it allows you to move the POI left or right without guessing how much is a little if you need to make corrections.
go back and have safe fun. possibly avoid him but be nice anyways.
David E
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I'm curious how the conversation went after the case was unclasped and opened. What could he possibly say?
I was wondering how the gun could be pointed at anyone if folks were all behind the same line, unless the gun was pointed up range.
From the clarification, it was not. The "safety" officer foolishly put himself forward of the line and in front of the muzzle, even if by just a little bit, and created the situation.
Since the OP passed the interview, ("survived" might be more accurate) then he should shrug off any lingering effects and shoot there safely and happily.
I was wondering how the gun could be pointed at anyone if folks were all behind the same line, unless the gun was pointed up range.
From the clarification, it was not. The "safety" officer foolishly put himself forward of the line and in front of the muzzle, even if by just a little bit, and created the situation.
Since the OP passed the interview, ("survived" might be more accurate) then he should shrug off any lingering effects and shoot there safely and happily.
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jerkface11
Member
If they worry about being swept with a cased weapon they are too uptight.
Ludasmith
Member
They'd freak knowing I walk around in a shoulder holster sometimes. Never at the range, of course.
I'm curious as to how they go and hang targets? Or is this an indoor range with the electronic hangers? At my range we put the gun on the table, slide locked back, mag out, and walk down range to change/hang/check targets.
I'm curious as to how they go and hang targets? Or is this an indoor range with the electronic hangers? At my range we put the gun on the table, slide locked back, mag out, and walk down range to change/hang/check targets.
jcwit
member
Wonder how they handle a gun show, with all the barrels pointing every which way.
I think the RO was correct to educate on the two primary points - where's the gun pointing, and the trigger finger. The pointing part has been discussed enough, I agree with everyone.
On the other hand, regarding the trigger finger placement, some people (women mostly) have short fingers, and can't really reach all the way past or around the trigger guard and so should be taught to use index-finger high - this way there's no inadvertent slip where the fingernail catches on the guard and then "oops" when her high-heels snap ...
Moreover, I can imagine situations with hair triggers where the fat of the palm-side fingers could press on a trigger enough to pull the trigger rearwards when adjusting the gun - particularly when new to the firearm. Trigger finger high can also help stabilize the gun's muzzle and even help with same-hand grip adjustment.
On the other hand, regarding the trigger finger placement, some people (women mostly) have short fingers, and can't really reach all the way past or around the trigger guard and so should be taught to use index-finger high - this way there's no inadvertent slip where the fingernail catches on the guard and then "oops" when her high-heels snap ...
Moreover, I can imagine situations with hair triggers where the fat of the palm-side fingers could press on a trigger enough to pull the trigger rearwards when adjusting the gun - particularly when new to the firearm. Trigger finger high can also help stabilize the gun's muzzle and even help with same-hand grip adjustment.
There's another reason to prefer the finger indexed along the frame rather than across the trigger guard. That's the phenomenon of interlimb interaction. This was discussed at all the classes I've taken at Gunsite, and see here and here.Guns4Fun said:
Briefly, it's part of the startle response. If one is surprised or startled, especially under stress, he is likely to squeeze his hands, including the trigger finger. It's a reflex, automatic and involuntary. If one's trigger finger is along side the trigger guard, instead of indexed along the frame, when startled or surprised, he is more likely to allow it to slip into the trigger guard, onto and pressing the trigger.
FROGO207
Member
I think the interviewer just was not good at conveying his thoughts in a manner that was easily understood. IF he had said at the beginning----"We are here to see how you were taught to handle a firearm and I will show you how we here at this range want you to do it when shooting here if you are doing it differently. Our procedures have proven safest at our range for all present members and will be the expected protocol to keep everyone on the same page when shooting here." I do think that the OP would have returned home with a different take on the interviewing process after it was over. I agree that the points the interviewer made are good points to be observed when handling a firearm. I also see that they were not points to stop the interview. If someone had questioned if I had indeed hit the target I would have offered to shoot it again and purposely put 2 rounds in each corner of the center ring and 2 dead center. I have a feeling you will like it there and learn some great things from the other members over time. FWIW our range has an orientation class that explains completely what is wanted and how to handle your firearm one day. Then a range qualification session the next day that has you show how well you understood what was explained and your ability to hit within an acceptable target area when actually shooting at our indoor range. IMHO this does keep the "spray and pray-shoot like on TV" types from wanting to drop in our private no RO indoor range and shooting it up if no one else is there.
I have a feeling you will like it there and learn some great things from the other members over time. FWIW our range has an orientation class that explains completely what is wanted and how to handle your firearm one day. Then a range qualification session the next day that has you show how well you understood what was explained and your ability to hit within an acceptable target area when actually shooting at our indoor range. IMHO this does keep the "spray and pray-shoot like on TV" types from wanting to drop in our private no RO indoor range and shooting it up if no one else is there.Otis is DaMan
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That is not a stupid mistake. Shake it off.
Averageman
Member
I belong to a private range, there is a waiting list, but thankfully no Soup Nazi's.
I was taught the safety rules and given two weeks of classes before I could shoot NRA Small Bore at my H.S. Our Instructor was my Shop Teacher, a great guy and a WWII Marine as a teenager.
My Next Instructor was my Drill Sergeant, he was very patient and a great Instructor.
Neither of these Gentlemen needed to use fear or intimidation to get his point across, they didn't need to show any attitude or superiority.
They were experts at their trade and were in control of the situation.
I often feel that those that are in less control need to assert themselves in odd ways to intimidate and belittle others.
Honestly, if I felt the way you do right now, I would find another range. I don't find intimidation a good way to learn or teach.
I was taught the safety rules and given two weeks of classes before I could shoot NRA Small Bore at my H.S. Our Instructor was my Shop Teacher, a great guy and a WWII Marine as a teenager.
My Next Instructor was my Drill Sergeant, he was very patient and a great Instructor.
Neither of these Gentlemen needed to use fear or intimidation to get his point across, they didn't need to show any attitude or superiority.
They were experts at their trade and were in control of the situation.
I often feel that those that are in less control need to assert themselves in odd ways to intimidate and belittle others.
Honestly, if I felt the way you do right now, I would find another range. I don't find intimidation a good way to learn or teach.
jj1962hemi
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I'll speak for me here, not the OP. I find that many ranges, particularly near the Big City where I live, don't allow anywhere near the degree of freedom that some of the other posters mention...meaning, most ranges around here would feel "uptight" to those folks.
I also think the RO may have been being kind and, as I might, the OP took the constructive criticism as a personal attack. As someone already said, the environment around some ranges seems more hostile than if you were at a book store, Wal-Mart, etc. I still remember being rebuked for saying "45 APC" instead of "45 ACP" and having been condescended to in the explanation....more than 25 years ago in my then-LGS. Some people can be testy, and my level of insecurity can exacerbate that. I now stick to LGS' without a high quantity of SWAT/Special Ops wannabees behind the counter.
Lastly, judging from some of the folks that come in and out of the skeet club I belong to, I can see why ROs assume you're dangerous until they get to know you. The safest position to take is to assume the new shooter has either never had safety training, or has been trained badly.
I would have had a similar reaction to Atom's, I would have made the same "mistakes" (the gun case one seems over the top), and I would have also reacted poorly to the coaching.
Down the line, you may find the RO is a great guy who is hyper-cautious.
I also think the RO may have been being kind and, as I might, the OP took the constructive criticism as a personal attack. As someone already said, the environment around some ranges seems more hostile than if you were at a book store, Wal-Mart, etc. I still remember being rebuked for saying "45 APC" instead of "45 ACP" and having been condescended to in the explanation....more than 25 years ago in my then-LGS. Some people can be testy, and my level of insecurity can exacerbate that. I now stick to LGS' without a high quantity of SWAT/Special Ops wannabees behind the counter.
Lastly, judging from some of the folks that come in and out of the skeet club I belong to, I can see why ROs assume you're dangerous until they get to know you. The safest position to take is to assume the new shooter has either never had safety training, or has been trained badly.
I would have had a similar reaction to Atom's, I would have made the same "mistakes" (the gun case one seems over the top), and I would have also reacted poorly to the coaching.
Down the line, you may find the RO is a great guy who is hyper-cautious.
I have observed most make exceptions to the "muzzle rule", maybe more than they think. Gun shows are one (guns on tables pointed towards aisles). Gun stores another (with cased guns pointed out). In both situations two rules are broken as the muzzle rule is violated AND there is an assumption the gun is unloaded. I also find many are more critical about it with others than themselves.
N003k
Member
Coalman, most consider the four rules of safe gun handling, to only apply when guns are being handled.
Guns in cases, on tables, on shelves, and so on aren't really being handled. It's not really an exception to most people. When you bring your guns home from the range, how do you make sure the muzzles don't flag anyone or anything? It's one flat 'exception' if you really want to call it that.
No hands on the gun means no rules are being broken. I suppose unless you have it set up in a rig that allows remote movement and firing, but, lets not go there.
Guns in cases, on tables, on shelves, and so on aren't really being handled. It's not really an exception to most people. When you bring your guns home from the range, how do you make sure the muzzles don't flag anyone or anything? It's one flat 'exception' if you really want to call it that.
No hands on the gun means no rules are being broken. I suppose unless you have it set up in a rig that allows remote movement and firing, but, lets not go there.
TITAN308
Member
I was about to say, local gun stores muzzle every customer that comes in at some point or another. (Do the guns on display all point right, or left? haha)
If you don't feel comfortable there, don't go. That being said, put yourself in the RO's shoes. He probably gets his fair share of folks who aren't as safety conscious as you appear to be. I'm guessing he doesn't know you, so he's probably just being overly cautious.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
To take that one step even father -- guns in holsters are not considered to break the muzzle rule, either and they most definitely ARE loaded. Strong-side belt holsters "flag" your thigh, legs, feet. "Appendix" carry flags your femoral artery when you sit...and maybe other things, too. Shoulder holsters, especially the horizontal kind, "flag" every person in the world who happens to be standing behind you, including your kid in the back seat of your car while you drive!
But those aren't violations. Guns that don't have fingers touching them are no a danger to anyone.
Ergo...a gun in a case, lying on a table, is not a safety violation, no matter which way it is pointing. It MUST be oriented properly before ANY handling at all, but that's all you need worry about.
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