Stupid question of the week: weak hand only vs weak hand supported? why do I suck?

[1KPerDay]

WHO I'm actually okay... usually I can hit about 80-90% of 8" plates at 15-18 yds unsupported. I cant the sights about 20 degrees inward as it feels more natural, and I hold bottom left edge. Most hit if I concentrate on trigger.

WHSupported (with strong hand on the grip), which I raaaarely try, I noticed today I miss about half or more. I had to move to 7 yds to even see where I was missing, and I was hitting the right edge of the plates. I feel like the sights are center, trigger finger placement is good, and feel like I'm getting a good release but obviously I'm doing something weird.

I tried Glock 23, Taurus PT101 (.40), and Beretta 92FS with similar results. The beretta was a bit better and I hit about 70% WHS from 15 yds but I was still mostly hitting to the right of the plates.

 

[zb338]

Pistol shooting isn't the easiest skill to pick up. It's not rocket science
so don't knock yourself out. There are a few little tricks but it's mostly
practice. Do a lot of dry firing and be honest with it. Try to go 30 dry
fire shots without a bad one and be honest with yourself. Have a friend
load your pistol and sneak an empty chamber in there after some shots
have been fired. That will tell you if you have a flinch.

 

[MrBorland]

Your non-shooting hand can certainly affect accuracy by affecting the gun before the shot breaks. Shooting SHO, as bullseye shooters do, may not be as fast as 2-handed, but it can be pretty accurate, since there's one less hand to have to apply consistently.

Switching hands, though, can be tricky. With both hands on the gun, you'd think it'd be more stable than WHO, but "stability" or "wobble" isn't what ruins accuracy - inconsistency and poor trigger control do. When there are two hands affecting the gun and neither of them are used to this grip, inconsistency is magnified, so it makes sense to me that WHsupported ought to be less accurate that WHO.

 

[GJSchulze]

It's likely that you are more accurate WHO compared to two handed because you take your time. You admit to not shooting two handed very often, so you are less practiced that way. If you shoot in USPSA or IDPA I guarantee that two handed would be more accurate because you're are shooting quickly and need to get your sights back on target immediately. IOW, two handed shooting gives you much better recoil control.

 

[1KPerDay]

I shoot local matches that require WHO during some stages and have to shoot pretty quickly. I will try again and make sure the cadence of shots is as equal as I felt it was.

 

[joem1945]

I've been shooting with either hand for many years. One problem I have on occasion is switching my eye to the correct sight picture. If i don't when I miss I know right away.

 

[ATLDave]

As a practical matter, other than for maybe some chronic medical issue, I don't know why you'd ever even want to shoot weak-handed with your strong hand in support. Presumably, you're shooting WH because either some game requires it (in which case it will almost certainly require WHO) or because your SH or strong-side arm has taken a bullet or an axe or IED or whatever.

As usual, Mr. Borland's explanation is very sound. But, as a practical matter, I don't see why one would be very interested in learning to shoot weak-handed two-handed.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Switching hands, though, can be tricky. With both hands on the gun, you'd think it'd be more stable than WHO, but "stability" or "wobble" isn't what ruins accuracy - inconsistency and poor trigger control do. When there are two hands affecting the gun and neither of them are used to this grip, inconsistency is magnified, so it makes sense to me that WHsupported ought to be less accurate that WHO.

Good points. I suspect that if the OP simply let his off (strong) hand guide the gun and did little but worry about trigger control with the other hand, his groups would improve. (A couple of top-line shooters recently, in articles on the net and in magazines, make the point that your strong hand should be focused on the trigger and the weak hand on gripping and positioning the gun. [That's an over-simplification of a more complex topic.]

If you've not shot a lot with the weak hand, learning not to SQUEEZE all of the fingers in that hand as you shoot is difficult.

 

[murf]

you are canting the gun and your strong hand is applying pressure opposite the cant. even if you just use the strong hand as a rest (applying no pressure to the gun), recoil will be affected in a bad way. i hate to say this but a teacup grip would probably be better in this situation, imo.

murf

 

[Jim K]

It is often overlooked that a gun recoils around the center of gravity of itself and whatever is holding it. If I normally fire with my strong hand alone, that is one center of gravity and I adjust the sights to compensate. If I add the weak hand then I may have to readjust the sights. If I switch sides, the center of gravity moves since my hand is now on the other side of the gun, and I will probably have to adjust the sights again.

Add other factors, like trigger control with the weak hand, and a lot of adjustments, both in the gun and sights and in the handling might have to be made.

Jim

 

[9mmepiphany]

When shooting WHO, your cadence is dictated by your sights returning onto target. Trying to keep the sights on target with a firmer grip or trying to bring them back onto target sooner by muscling it down is a losing proposition as it interferes with the natural recoil management and will often compromise trigger management.

When shooting WHSupported, you need to consciously allow the support hand to provide most of the grip and dedicate the WH to trigger management. The most common error is to continue to overgrip with the WH

But, as a practical matter, I don't see why one would be very interested in learning to shoot weak-handed two-handed.

Because it is part of the complete skill set.

As a more esoteric matter, it allows a deeper analysis for your fundamental techniques when shooting SH

 

[rskent]

As a more esoteric matter, it allows a deeper analysis for your fundamental techniques when shooting SH

What a great answer. I don't think it could be said any better than that.

 

[ATLDave]

9mmepiph',

Far be it from me to question someone exploring something just because it's interesting. But, again, as a practical matter, I'm at a loss as to why WH-two-handed is part of a "complete skill set."

A baseball player who can run and throw and catch and hit for average and hit for power is said to have a complete skill set. An additional skill would be to learn to turn the bat upside down and hit while gripping the barrel of the bad and swinging the skinny end at the ball. But it's not generally considered as part of the "skill set," because it isn't really a useful skill that will ever be needed; a player who cannot do this is not thought to be missing a part of the "complete skill set."

WH-2-handed seems to fall into the same category to me, but maybe it's just a failure of imagination on my part.

 

[9mmepiphany]

A baseball player who can run and throw and catch and hit for average and hit for power is said to have a complete skill set. An additional skill would be to learn to turn the bat upside down and hit while gripping the barrel of the bad and swinging the skinny end at the ball.

Incorrect analogy.

A correct analogy would be a baseball player who would be able to catch, throw, and hit with either hand. I'm not a big BB fan, isn't that what a Switch Hitter is able to do...or is that just the ability to bat from either side of the plate?

Far be it from me to question someone exploring something just because it's interesting. But, again, as a practical matter, I'm at a loss as to why WH-two-handed is part of a "complete skill set."

Not just interesting, but usually enlightening...it does require that you have a desire to be an eternal student

From a professional instructor's POV, it would be the understanding and ability to teach any given client.

From a shooter's POV, it would be moving out of a comfort zone...where many less than optimal habits develop...and apply the fundamentals normally used in a mirror image. It forces analysis of your basic techniques and highlights weaknesses and cheats you may have developed.

It reveals faults in your SH technique, which you wouldn't normally notice because of multiple repetitions...that is how you ingrain bad habits.

It is also helpful to learn to align your sights using your non-dominate eye...it brings your subconscious to the fore

 

[ATLDave]

A correct analogy would be a baseball player who would be able to catch, throw, and hit with either hand. I'm not a big BB fan, isn't that what a Switch Hitter is able to do...or is that just the ability to bat from either side of the plate?

Just batting from either side. Which is useful in a very specific way, in that pitchers' breaking balls (curves and sliders and such) generally move in one direction - from their throwing side towards their glove side. So by batting "opposite" the pitcher, the breaking balls come IN to you. A switch hitter rarely has to deal with balls that move significantly away from him, which are the hardest pitches for most batters. So directly useful in and of itself. Those who can switch hit DO switch hit in competition. Voluntarily, because they gain an advantage. I'm not aware of anyone who voluntarily switches up hands while shooting competitions for some advantage.

The rest of what you say makes some sense, but still wouldn't place the skill in the "complete skill set." But I see that your case is not that the ability to shoot WH2H is useful in and of itself, but merely that it is a possible self-(or other-)pedagogical tool. I can buy that.

Actually, I'm now more convinced that my analogy is a good one. Sometimes golf (and, less frequently, batting) coaches suggest swinging a club or bat upside down so that the batter or golfer can "feel" a faster swing (putting the heavy part in your hands makes it easier to move the light part faster). The exercise has some teaching value.

However, there's little reason to really work hard at getting better at the exercise itself. Because it has no direct use. It's just useful to go through the exercise, but not worth a bunch of effort to improve.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm not aware of anyone who voluntarily switches up hands while shooting competitions for some advantage.

Not in competition, but it is more a combat skill for Urban Fighting...with a longgun. The only time I remember doing it in competition was when a course of fire in a Multigun competition required it.

If I were better at it...on par with my dominate hand...I'd do it on IDPA courses that favored the support hand. Makes leaning around barricades easier

I don't know about a "bunch or effort", not as much as I'd put into shooting WHO...but likely more than I'd put into Point Shooting with both hands on the gun or my hands above waist level.

Another skill that many folks fail to see the usefulness of is the ability to shoot accurately with your eyes closed/covered.

The first stage I ever won was a 6 target array, interspersed with non-threat targets, spread over 160 degrees...so it required a reload...and you shot it with your vision completely obscured. My margin of victory was about the same as the time I took to shoot the course

 

[Sam1911]

I've been shooting with either hand for many years. One problem I have on occasion is switching my eye to the correct sight picture. If i don't when I miss I know right away

That seems unclear. With a handgun there is almost never an advantage to switching eyes just because you switch hands.

(With a long gun, of course, it is critical to do so.)

 

[9mmepiphany]

With a handgun there is almost never an advantage to switching eyes just because you switch hands.

That reminds me of the Quell system...from the originator of the ASP 9mm pistol...that advocated using the non-dominate eye when using the Guttersnipe sighting system

 

[1KPerDay]

Well just for fun I tried my .22 ruger with 2.5lb trigger... hit 20 out of 20 weak hand and weak hand supported, center hits.

For clarification, I only cant the pistol WHO, not when supported.

And for the above .22 test I didn't cant the sights at all.

Must be how I'm reacting to recoil or the relatively heavier/longer trigger pulls on the other pistols.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I think it might be more anticipation than reaction...the displacement between the first and second shot would show which it is.

I would offer an educated guess that you are compensating for an expectation of a heavier trigger by gripping harder. This doesn't need to be a negative thing if you don't allow that harder grip to change your force vectors on the gun or the reduced dexterity of your trigger finger to accelerate your trigger press

 

[Walt Sherrill]

When shooting off-hand, it's hard to NOT squeeze all of the fingers on that hand when squeezing the trigger. That can throw you off.

That may be what's causing you some problems when the hand isn't supported. Try dry firing (snap cap or a spent case with a .22) and see if you can notice the difference.

 

[1KPerDay]

I think it might be more anticipation than reaction...the displacement between the first and second shot would show which it is.

Yeah, that's what I meant but "reacting" to the recoil by anticipating or tensing up before the shot. Your description is less confusing than mine.

 

[murf]

most people that shoot with their "weak" hand don't put in a lot of practice time with that hand. if a shooter wants to make their weak hand "strong", he/she needs to always allocate a portion of their range time and dry fire time to the weak hand.

it really is that simple.

murf