hatterasurf
Member
Comparing the .38 bullet to the 9mm and its hard to understand why the 9mm is more powerful. The .38 is wider than the 9mm and looks to pack more power. What am i missing or can someone explain it to me?
Thanks.
Thanks.
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Stupid Question
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Phantom Warrior
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Blame black powder...
Basically, the .38 Special cartridge was developed when black powder was still in use. By those standards, its performance is reasonable. However, now that smokeless powders have been developed it seems odd for such a long cartridge to have such anemic performance, especially when compared to 9mm.
But .38 Special has to stay that way because it is a specification. All the old .38s and the modern super duper lightweight .38s that are barely strong enough to handle .38 Special would blow up if you filled the cartridge with full strengh modern powders. I think...Corbon? does make more powerful .38 loads for revolvers that can handle it.
Catch a full history on Wikipedia's page here.
Basically, the .38 Special cartridge was developed when black powder was still in use. By those standards, its performance is reasonable. However, now that smokeless powders have been developed it seems odd for such a long cartridge to have such anemic performance, especially when compared to 9mm.
But .38 Special has to stay that way because it is a specification. All the old .38s and the modern super duper lightweight .38s that are barely strong enough to handle .38 Special would blow up if you filled the cartridge with full strengh modern powders. I think...Corbon? does make more powerful .38 loads for revolvers that can handle it.
Catch a full history on Wikipedia's page here.
Car Knocker
Member
If memory serves, the 9mm Luger/Parabellum jacketed bullet is .355". I believe the 9mm Makarov is slightly larger.
Red Tornado
Member
The Mak is .364. I've heard .355 AND .356 for the 9mm, depending on the source. Who's got the definitive answer?
RT
RT
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Basically the answer lies in pressure. The 9mm is loaded to a higher average pressure than the standard and +p .38 Special. Of course, the .357 Magnum's bullet diameter is the same as .38 and outclasses the 9mm in handy fashion...so bullet diameter and/or case length is not an indicator of power.
As a couple have noted...If you fill up a .38 Special case with a medium-slow powder like AA#9 or Alliant Blue Dot...and you didn't grenade the gun...you'd probably blow even the 9X23 or .357 Sig out of the water on the velocity/energy scale. Of course, your revolver probably wouldn't work any more...
Basically the answer lies in pressure. The 9mm is loaded to a higher average pressure than the standard and +p .38 Special. Of course, the .357 Magnum's bullet diameter is the same as .38 and outclasses the 9mm in handy fashion...so bullet diameter and/or case length is not an indicator of power.
As a couple have noted...If you fill up a .38 Special case with a medium-slow powder like AA#9 or Alliant Blue Dot...and you didn't grenade the gun...you'd probably blow even the 9X23 or .357 Sig out of the water on the velocity/energy scale. Of course, your revolver probably wouldn't work any more...
Car Knocker
Member
Red Tornado
Member
Car Knocker,
Thanks, that's why I've seen 2 answers.
Tuner,
Could you load a .38 Spl as you indicated and fire it in a .357 Mag? Would that contain the pressure enough to test the potential of the round?
Thanks,
RT
Thanks, that's why I've seen 2 answers.
Tuner,
Could you load a .38 Spl as you indicated and fire it in a .357 Mag? Would that contain the pressure enough to test the potential of the round?
Thanks,
RT
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Load
Red Tornado...NO! The reduced capacity of the .38 case would push the pressures over the top, even with a recommended .357 load. i.e. 14.5 grains of 2400/160-grain cast bullet/.357 case is a near top-end load. Same data in a .38 Special case would be like adding a grain or more of powder to the .357 case.
Red Tornado...NO! The reduced capacity of the .38 case would push the pressures over the top, even with a recommended .357 load. i.e. 14.5 grains of 2400/160-grain cast bullet/.357 case is a near top-end load. Same data in a .38 Special case would be like adding a grain or more of powder to the .357 case.
Jenrick
Member
I don't reload and my question is ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL AND IS NOT TO BE ATTEMPTED
If we got fairly close to maxing out the powder loading in a .38, .357, or 9mm, would we gain anything really? Discounting a weapon functioning and the like, would having a round running at that pressure level be all that usefull? I'm of course assuming we've got a weapon capable of handling that kind of pressure.
I would think that the gain in MV would be offset by the massive amount of pentration you'd get from a small cartridge. I suppose if you could get them going fast enough to ensure fragmentation like a 5.56 round it might be worth it. Additionally the recoil would seem to be excessive, then again some folks don't think a .44mag is all that bad.
-Jenrick
If we got fairly close to maxing out the powder loading in a .38, .357, or 9mm, would we gain anything really? Discounting a weapon functioning and the like, would having a round running at that pressure level be all that usefull? I'm of course assuming we've got a weapon capable of handling that kind of pressure.
I would think that the gain in MV would be offset by the massive amount of pentration you'd get from a small cartridge. I suppose if you could get them going fast enough to ensure fragmentation like a 5.56 round it might be worth it. Additionally the recoil would seem to be excessive, then again some folks don't think a .44mag is all that bad.
-Jenrick
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Gain
Jenrick asked:
>If we got fairly close to maxing out the powder loading in a .38, .357, or 9mm, would we gain anything really? <
********************
Not really. Beyond a certain point, it takes a big increase in pressures to see a modest gain in velocity. i.e. a .308 caliber rifle/150-grain bullet operating near or right at its industry maximum pressure will push that bullet to about 2800 fps in a 22-inch barrel. Upping the powder charge enough to generate 10% higher pressures will return about a 2% gain in velocity. In other words...Dangerous pressures and/or increased wear and stress on the rifle for an extra 50-60 fps...if that much. You can often find nearly that much variation from shot to shot in good factory ammo, and even more in some of the cheaper stuff.
Jenrick asked:
>If we got fairly close to maxing out the powder loading in a .38, .357, or 9mm, would we gain anything really? <
********************
Not really. Beyond a certain point, it takes a big increase in pressures to see a modest gain in velocity. i.e. a .308 caliber rifle/150-grain bullet operating near or right at its industry maximum pressure will push that bullet to about 2800 fps in a 22-inch barrel. Upping the powder charge enough to generate 10% higher pressures will return about a 2% gain in velocity. In other words...Dangerous pressures and/or increased wear and stress on the rifle for an extra 50-60 fps...if that much. You can often find nearly that much variation from shot to shot in good factory ammo, and even more in some of the cheaper stuff.
Jenrick
Member
Thanks for the reply Tuner, exactly what I was wondering.
-Jenrick
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