Sudden Heavy Leading = Shot Out Barrel?

[wally]

How do you tell when a barrel needs to be replaced or if its some other problem?

I've an AMT "Lightning" which is a Ruger MK 1 clone except for the addition of a bolt hold open and ten round magazine. I've had it since the mid-80's and its given very good service. Accuracy is much better than your average Ruger probably because the trigger was much better out of the box. It's always had problems with light primer strikes making it ammo sensitive, but it started getting to the point even the Federal Champion I'd been using was having a high mis-fire rate compared to the same ammo in other guns so I replaced the hammer spring and recoil spring.

At first things looked great -- I could even shoot Remington Golden Bullet ammo without mis-fires where I used to get three or four per mag with it. But now about 1000 rounds later accuracy got really bad -- I mean smooth-bore like!

I cleaned it really good and saw lots of lead come out of the barrel, accuracy returned to normal for the cheap ammo I've been using -- Federal Champion, Remington Thunderbolt, and Remington Golden Bullet Bulk Pak. Problem is after about 200 rounds its not hitting the broad side of a barn again! Cleaned it again, was heavily leaded. Tried again today and good accuracy at first, but again no accuracy after ~ 200 rounds or so, this time I shot half Federal and Have Remington Thunderbolt. I've had not leading problems with these ammo in my Ruger 22/45 or Beretta Neos or newest S&W M22A.

Any Ideas?

--wally.

 

[Preacherman]

I'd suggest cleaning it really thoroughly, then trying a few boxes of higher-quality ammo (e.g. CCI Match stuff, or something like that). If it doesn't lead with higher-quality ammo, then you can blame the cheaper ammo for the leading problem. If it leads-up even with higher-quality ammo, then the problem lies with your chamber and barrel.

In that case, you might be able to fire-lap the barrel using one of the available kits of various grades of grit, which should remove the worst of the roughness. You could also try using Microlon Gun Juice after fire-lapping, which will give a good, smooth finish to the bore.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If you've actually shot out the barrel of a .22, that will be a historical first. Your leading problem may be due to either or both of two factors -- rust pitting in the bore, or poor quality ammo.

Clean the bore thoroughly -- I use a 50-50 mixture of white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide (careful, don't get it on the finish or stocks.) Plug the breech with something like a pencil eraser and pour the mixture in. A gray scum will form -- pour that right down the drain, it's the lead. Clean thoroughly and if necessary repeat.

Dry and examine the bore -- if it looks good, make sure it's thoroughly dry and run an oiled patch through it.

If the bore is pitted, keep it cleaner and you shouldn't have any more problems.

 

[molonlabe]

More 22's have been cleaned out before shot out...

 

[thatguy]

"Shoot-out" a .22 barrel? That would take millions of rounds.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

More 22's have been cleaned out before shot out...

Absolutely. In fact, I'll say no .22s have been shot out. A lot have been rusted out, and a lot have been damaged by over-zealous cleaning.

That's why I recommend chemical cleaning (vinegar and hydrogen peroxide.) Afterwards, if the barrel is pitted, or if it continues to lead, regardless of what ammo is used, I'd recommend cleaming with Ed's Red.

 

[wally]

Thanks for the comments, but....

Forgot to mention the gun is 100% stainless, rust sure isn't an issue and I see no evidence of any pitting or irregularities in the bore once cleaned. I've ran many patches of JB Bore Cleaner paste thru it this afternoon and its really shinny bright now.

Over-cleaning. If you saw me and my guns that'd be good for a big laugh. The three times I've had the bolt out to clean the bore since the accuracy problem developed is three times more that I've done it since the gun was new (circa 1985). I've never ran a rod down the muzzle either, just flush with brake parts cleaner and re-lube since the first time I got the gun and decided it was way to much trouble to take down unless absolutely necessary -- which hasn't been needed until now

Cheap ammo -- yeah that's what I always shoot, never been a problem until now. Shot some of the same lots thru other guns without any accuracy problems, I will take down the 22/45 and S&W M22A (its a virgin, only got ~400 rounds thru it, but all the same lots of Thunderbolt, Golden Bullet, & Champion that have started giving fits to the AMT all of a sudden

If its something changed in these lots of ammo I should see at least some leading in these other guns. After all I've shot many thousands of rounds of this cheap stuff thru this gun with no problems until now. I could admit I just waited too long to clean and it finally caught up with me, but after two really good cleanings I got less than 200 rounds before it leaded up enough to ruin accuracy both times.

I'm a little leary of chemical cleaning (other than the ammonia that's its Hoppe's #9) as stainless won't "rust" but it will corrode and pit in some chemical environments.

Vern, you sure your peroxide and vinegar mix is OK for stainless? I'd think peroxide would be even faster to make rust/corrosion than sea water since its a pretty strong oxidizer. You talking 3% topical or 20% hair bleach peroxide?

After flushing it real good with brake parts cleaner the bore shines and is as oil-free as its ever gonna get. I ran an oiled patch of Hoppe's gun oil down the bore last time and it was no help. What do y'all think of trying one of those "molly coating" lubes?

I'm really mystified here. The bore was almost a mirror bright last time out and it leaded bady and quickly

It'll be a safe queen if this continues, cleaning every 150 rounds or so to remain shootable just won't cut it, and spending about as much for "match quality" .22LR ammo as do for 9mm just ain't gonna happen for my steel plate plinkin'

Remember I've put many thousands of rounds of this cheap ammo thru this gun over the years, only cleaning the action enough to keep the bolt cycling and never had a problem until about a month ago after I replaced the hammer spring and recoil spring which seemed to have solved the mis-fire problem that had developed, so I was expecting another twenty years of use out of the thing.

--wally.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Are you satisfied the bore is clean now? If so, no need to go farther.

I'd run a patch soaked in Ed's Red through it after each shooting session from now on, followed by a dry patch or two, until they come clean, then a patch moistened with Ed's Red -- which is very good for lead.

If the problem persists, I'd clean chemically with vinegar and hydrogen peroxide -- what have you got to lose?

 

[fizzy]

the wax on .22 bullets prevents rust.

so there's almost no likelihood that the bore is pitted. I had such a strange thing happen to me with CCI mini-mags once, with a Colt .22lr conversion to the 1911, but it was the gap between the floating chamber and the barrel that was causing the problem. Dunno what could do this with a rifle. 22 barrels don't get fouled, either.

 

[borrowedtime69]

At first things looked great -- I could even shoot Remington Golden Bullet ammo without mis-fires where I used to get three or four per mag with it. But now about 1000 rounds later accuracy got really bad -- I mean smooth-bore like!

I cleaned it really good and saw lots of lead come out of the barrel, accuracy returned to normal for the cheap ammo I've been using -- Federal Champion, Remington Thunderbold, and Remington Golden Bullet Bulk Pak. Problem is after about 200 rounds its not hitting the broad side of a barn again! Cleaned it again, was heavily leaded. Tried again today and good accuracy at first, but again no accuracy after ~ 200 rounds or so, this time I shot half Federal and Have Remington Thumderbold. I've had not leading problems with these ammo in my Ruger 22/45 or Beretta Neos or newest S&W M22A.
.

There is your problem. you are shooting absolute crap through your guns. Remington .22 ammo is the worst, filth, ridden, blankety blankin' ammo ever made. i only shoot CCI and winchester ammo out of my guns and have never had any problems. i use the CCI mini-mags and winchester dynapoints or winchester wildcat.
summary, Remington = bad
most anything else = good
Good luck to you, and i too am a Ruger fan! -Eric

 

[wally]

I've just taken down the M22A and 22/45 -- no evidence of any leading in either, shooting "crappy ammo" from the same lots as giving fits with the AMT. Several thousand thru the 22/45 since I last looked down the bore, ~400 thru the M22A Santa brought me, today was its second outing.

I know some guns don't like some ammo and vice-versa, but these same three brands of "crappy ammo" was no problem for many thousands of rounds in this gun until recently (although until I changed springs the mis-fire rate with the Remington ammo was too high to be much fun). If something changed in the ammo I'd expect to see evidence of it in the other guns, one brand new, the other well used, but still a newbie compared to the AMT.

I'll shoot only Federal Champion in it next time out and see what happens. This is mostly what I shot before since the mis-fire problem with the Remington brands meant I rarely shot more than a box of it in an outing -- I'd periodically try again to see if the ammo had changed, but I figured it was the gun since these brands were fine in my Rugers, Beretta Neos and Walther P22 (The Federal Champion wasn't so great in the P22 often failing to cycle the slide enough to pick the next round from the mag). One or two duds or mis-fires per brick of cheap ammo I can live with, but often I get none.

I had this sudden appearance of inaccuracy with my P22 but its cause was obvious -- the barrel tension nut had worked loose. Some blue Loc-tite has kept this problem away. This can't happen with the AMT which is basically a Ruger clone.

--wally.

 

[ktd]

It seems to me that recent Rem Thunderbolt is pretty bad. I have used it on and off for plinking without a prob, but recently all of a sudden I got poor accuracy and when I cleaned it, I pushed out 4 inch long pieces of lead that had filled the rifling.

 

[wally]

It seems to me that recent Rem Thunderbolt is pretty bad. I have used it on and off for plinking without a prob, but recently all of a sudden I got poor accuracy and when I cleaned it, I pushed out 4 inch long pieces of lead that had filled the rifling.

Yes this does sound like what I've suddenly seen in the AMT except my lead chunks were "only" 1-1/2 to 2" , if its the ammo very puzzling why two other guns seem to have no problems with it.

I'll test this by only shooting Federal Champion thru it next time out, and I'll try only Remington Thunderbolt in the 22/45 for comparision.

Thanks!
--wally.

 

[pcf]

It's not uncommon for .22LR barrels drop of in accuracy when cleaned. Put 500 rounds through and see how it groups after that.

 

[Biff]

Put a bore snake in your range kit, and pull it through your barrel from breech to muzzle every 50-100 rounds. (put a little Ed's Red on the snake first)

 

[trickyasafox]

i'll admit i cleaned a barrel to the point of uselessness. was my first 10/22 (and only 10/22) i was just always taught to clean everything after every outing. well, the rest of the gun is in great shape but the stock barrel ended up south of cheese. if any of you havent looked into the wonderful world of barrel seconds i suggest you do. i got an 18in fluted stainless Green Mt barrel for 40 dollars shipped because it had a blemish that the stock covered anyway

 

[mainmech48]

As Vern and molonlabe said, get the bore and chamber as squeeky clean as possible first. Shooter's Choice Lead Remover has worked very well for me in my .357s where I shoot swaged and cast bullets almost exclusively.

One possible suggestion: try slugging the bore. Miking the bullets on some of the ammo that's been showing the leading might be revealing, too. IMO, there's likely something else going on here besides cheap ammo. If there isn't any roughness or pitting in the bore itself, the next most likely cause would be either over/under sized bullets or bore.

If your barrel slug shows an out-of-spec bore, or a "ring/bulge" God Forbid, it shouldn't be too expensive to replace the barrel. Heck, you could even have it relined if you wanted to preserve the factory markings. Cheaper than a new pistol, anyway

 

[Vern Humphrey]

One possible suggestion: try slugging the bore. Miking the bullets on some of the ammo that's been showing the leading might be revealing, too. IMO, there's likely something else going on here besides cheap ammo. If there isn't any roughness or pitting in the bore itself, the next most likely cause would be either over/under sized bullets or bore.

That's a good idea. Although other pistols aren't showing the same leading, an undersize bullet -- for the bore of that pistol -- could conceivably be the problem. You'd get gas blow-by, with cutting and perhaps some actual melting of the bullet.

Keep us posted on this one -- we'll add it to our collective wisdom when we find out what the problem is.

 

[wally]

It's not uncommon for .22LR barrels drop of in accuracy when cleaned. Put 500 rounds through and see how it groups after that.

You missed what I said, it shot fine both times *after* cleaning but fouled so bad as to lose all accuracy after ~200 rounds!

--wally.

 

[wally]

One possible suggestion: try slugging the bore. Miking the bullets on some of the ammo that's been showing the leading might be revealing, too. IMO, there's likely something else going on here besides cheap ammo. If there isn't any roughness or pitting in the bore itself, the next most likely cause would be either over/under sized bullets or bore.

If your barrel slug shows an out-of-spec bore, or a "ring/bulge" God Forbid, it shouldn't be too expensive to replace the barrel. Heck, you could even have it relined if you wanted to preserve the factory markings. Cheaper than a new pistol, anyway

If the bore were ringed from shooting after a squib I'd see it as a dark ring once the bore is as shinny bright as it is now -- I've seen ringed bores and it was the first thing I looked for.

If the bore/chamber diameter has increased from years of shooting, such that it is now oversized for three brands of ammo that to me would define a "shot out" barrel.

Up to now its gone many thousands of rounds without cleaing maintaining better accuracy than you might expect with cheap ammo. Seemed logical that it might finally be fouled enough to really need a cleaning. What's not making much sense is accuracy returned to normal after a good cleaing but only lasted about 200 rounds, and repeated after cleaning again.

Both the Federal Champion and Remington Thunderbolt mic 0.2235" as far as I can tell, been a long time since my mic has seen gauge blocks but the diameters can't be different by more than 0.0005"

I'll shoot only Federal thru it this weekend and see what happens and report back.

--wally.

 

[Longbow]

Is the Remington thunder bolt the black tip (polymer coated) one?
I ask because I experienced the same thing on my S&W 22A. After firing 2K rounds of the said ammo, I experienced heavy leading also.
I cleaned the barrel and switched back to non-poly coated ammo and all is well again.

 

[wally]

Is the Remington thunder bolt the black tip (polymer coated) one?
I ask because I experienced the same thing on my S&W 22A. After firing 2K rounds of the said ammo, I experienced heavy leading also.
I cleaned the barrel and switched back to non-poly coated ammo and all is well again.

The bullet is "blacker" than the Federal Champion which is more a dark gray. Not sure what its coated with but its dry to the touch and not "waxy" like the Remington Golden bullet.

I probably wouldn't complain if it went 2000 rounds before needing a cleaning, but losing all accuracy at around 200 rounds is pretty useless to me.

--wally.

 

[Longbow]

The bullet is "blacker" than the Federal Champion which is more a dark gray. Not sure what its coated with but its dry to the touch and not "waxy" like the Remington Golden bullet.

--wally.

Yup, that's the one. Just FYI, I used Sweets 762 to clean the bore.

 

[wally]

Looks like it was the ammo!

Longbow seems to have nailed it. Put 500 rounds of Federal Champion thru the AMT with no noticible loss of accuracy from first to last shot.

Tried putting 500 rounds of Remignton Thunderbolt thru the 22/45 and it lost accuracy after about 390 rounds, I quit after 420. I quess its possible the red dot lost zero, but its held real well so far and I'll find out next time out after I clean the 22/45. Unfortunately I've still got three bricks of it

I can't see anything I recognize as unique lot number IDs on the Thunderbolt boxes or bricks, but all the Thunderbolt in question was purchased from two different Academy stores in the past six weeks.

There wasn't the tremendous amount of lead in the 22/45 as there was in the AMT after 200 rounds last time, but it was much more than came out when I cleaned it for this test (which was the first time I'd run anything thru its bore and it had shot over 3000 rounds of these three brands of ammo, but mostly the Remington Golden Bullet JHP). Since its got a red Dot sight I probably noticed the decrement a lot quicker too.

So I guess the collective wisdom here is Remington Thunderbolt seems to have become not worth buying recently. We can file it under "Some guns don't like some ammo, and vice-versa." And the belief that its "impossible" to shoot out a .22 barrel remains intact

--wally.

 

[Longbow]

Its interesting to note that I've heard similar reports (heavy leading, inaccuracy) on folks using polymer coated bullets in 9mm and .40 cal (Speer bullets?). It becomes apparent when loading to or near max load. The .45 ACP doesn't seem to be affected.
I'm guessing the pressure variation is the factor.
High presure = high heat generation = more melting of the polymer coat?