Suppressor + out-of-state safe deposit box?

[ctdonath]

Scenario:
I move to Georgia, wait 90 days, and legally buy a suppressor (BATFE forms, $200 tax, CLEO signoff, etc.). Later moving back to NY, I stick the suppressor in a safe deposit box in Georgia.
Legal?

Variant:
Instead of a safe deposit box, I put it in a small locked metal box and store it in a friend's basement in Georgia, then move to NY. While travelling to NFA-friendly states, my friend mails the box to the hotel where I pick it up and later mail it back to my friend WITH MY name on it. Key stays with me whole time.
Legal?

 

[Preacherman]

You worry me with this and your other SBR thread. Put yourself in the shoes of a typical DA or prosecutor in NY. Here he/she is, confronted with a guy who is doing everything possible to circumvent NY law by playing with Federal law, storing weapons and/or accessories out of state, and generally skating on the thinnest ice he can possibly get away with. Wouldn't you be saying to yourself "Well, I'll just have to nail this scofflaw any way I can, for anything I can!"???

I suspect too much evasion will store up trouble for you further down the road...

 

[Deavis]

It is my understanding that FFLs purchase a SOT specifically to be able to transfer Title II weapons between them without filling out a transfer forms. This is simply based on what I read recently in Dan Shea's book.

If a Title II weapon changes hands then it is considered a transfer. I buy a supressor, my SOT transfers it to me on a Form 4, I shoot with it, I don't want it, and I try to give it back to him. I can't just hand it back off to him because the ATF considers that another seperate transfer! That means that I have to officially file another form (4 again, I believe) to transfer it back to him! That is why you have to be careful about how the weapon is transferred because you can rack up multiple transfer charges if you aren't careful.

If you gave the supressor to your friend then he would be in possession of a supressor without an approved Form 4. That is illegal since it must be in your possession or transferred to him via the ATF. You could mail the supressor to a SOT and then pick it up from him when traveling through NFA friendly states but I am pretty sure that giving it to your buddy to "hold on to and mail" is illegal.

Why not move to the USA instead?

 

[Mark in California]

Back when I was an FFL, I received a Treasury Circular stating people were violating Federal law and storing class III weapons with the local police when going on vaction. The method mention by the BATF to secure your weapon when on vaction was to put the weapon or action in a safety deposit box at a bank. The only requirment was it had to be a dual key system where you retained one key and the bank had the other key and could not get in without breaking in. Their reasoning was you retained custody because only you could open the box and you denied access to everyone else.

 

[ctdonath]

Preacherman:
Sentiment understood. I'm trying to understand how I can exercise my rights - rights easily exercised in a majority of states - under a complex set of conflicting and counter-intuitive laws.

Kinda like "complying with the AWB prohibitions" vs. "circumventing the AWB prohibitions" by removing a flash suppressor from an AR15. Which is it? When was following the law punishable? At least I have a public record of concerted efforts to understand the law towards compliant ends.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Legal?

The answer to both is YES. You have to make sure you keep ATF informed of the address where you are storing the suppressor and if storing with a friend, leave a copy of your Form 4 in case something happens while he has it.

 

[Deavis]

Before you follow Hkmp5sd's advice there, here is the federal law straight from the ATF's page (NFA of 1934). This is in the Green Book

§ 5861. Prohibited acts
It shall be unlawful for any person -
(a) to engage in business as a manufacturer or importer of, or dealer in, firearms
without having paid the special (occupational) tax required by section 5801 for his
business or having registered as required by section 5802; or
(b) to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him in violation of the
provisions of this chapter; or
(c) to receive or possess a firearm made in violation of the provisions of this
chapter; or
(d) to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National
Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; or
(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other
identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other
identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as
required by this chapter; or
(j) to transport, deliver, or receive any firearm in interstate commerce which has
not been registered as required by this chapter; or
(k) to receive or possess a firearm which has been imported or brought into the
United States in violation of section 5844; or
(l) to make, or cause the making of, a false entry on any application, return, or
record required by this chapter, knowing such entry to be false.

It doesn't matter if you leave your Form 4 with your buddy, he is in possession of a title II weapon that is NOT registered to him.

 

[Deavis]

Also, according to the Green Book you do not have to tell the ATF when transporting a supressor interstate... Notice that it is not mentioned.

§ 178.28 Transportation of destructive devices and certain firearms.
(a) The Director may authorize a person to transport in interstate or
foreign commerce any destructive device, machine gun, short -barreled
shotgun, or short -barreled rifle, if he finds that such transportation is
reasonably necessary and is consistent with public safety and applicable
State and local law. A person who desires to transport in interstate or
foreign commerce any such device or weapon shall submit a written request
so to do, in duplicate, to the Director. The request shall contain:
(1) A complete description and identification of the device or weapon
to be transported;
(2) A statement whether such transportation involves a transfer of
title;
(3) The need for such transportation;
(4) The approximate date such transportation is to take place ;
(5) The present location of such device or weapon and the place to
which it is to be transported;
(6) The mode of transportation to be used (including, if by common or
contract carrier, the name and address of such carrier); and
(7) Evidence that the transportation or possession of such device or
weapon is not inconsistent with the laws at the place of destination.
(b) No person shall transport any destructive device, machine gun,
short-barreled shotgun, or short -barreled rifle in interstate or foreign
commerce under the provisions of this section until he has received
specific authorization so to do from the Director. Authorization granted
under this section does not carry or import relief from any other
statutory or regulatory provision relating to firearms.
(c) This section shall not be construed as requiring licensees to
obtain authorization to transport destructive devices, machine guns,
short-barreled shotguns, and s hort-barreled rifles in interstate or
foreign commerce : Provided, That in the case of a licensed importer,
licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, such a licensee is qualified
under the National Firearms Act (see also Part 179 of this chapter) and
this part to engage in the business with respect to the device or weapon
to be transported, and that in the case of a licensed collector, the
device or weapon to be transported is a curio or relic.

 

[357wheelgunner]

"I'm trying to understand how I can exercise my rights - rights easily exercised in a majority of states - under a complex set of conflicting and counter-intuitive laws. "

Cut your losses and move to a better state. It is sad that otherwise great rural states are ruined by one or two big cities, for example Chicago in Illinois, or Indeanappolis and Gary in Indiana, or Milwaukee and Madison in Wisconsin, or New York in New York, that is all I can list.

Anyway, I used to live in Milwaukee and I wanted to CCW, so the first chance I got I moved to a better state (in this case TN, I met a beautiful girl from Knoxville while on a Carribean cruise, so I chased her down and got her pregnant so she'd have to marry me ).

There you go, the obvious solution to your problem is to impregnate a beautiful southern girl so she has to marry you, and move to her home town. Gotta love that accent....

 

[dloken]

I believe the ATF suggests the storage in a locked container dealie if you move to a non-NFA state.

It's in their FAQ somewhere. I believe you must notify them of this and where it is stored. Also you MUST be the only one who has access to the inside of the container.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

dear Deavis,

Before you follow Hkmp5sd's advice there, here is the federal law straight from the ATF's page (NFA of 1934). This is in the Green Book

ATF has always stated that a NFA item can be stored at a location other than with the registered owner provided the NFA item is in a locked container and only the registered owner has the key/combination to access that container. Under those conditions, the person storing the NFA item is not considered to possess the NFA item. You must supply ATF with the location of the NFA item and leaving a copy of the Form 4 with the person storing the item is in the event it is stolen or another problem occurs so he can provide the information to law enforcement. ATF recommends using a safe deposit box, but does not prohibit storing it elsewhere. In his description, ctdonath clearly stated the suppressor would be stored in a locked container and only he would possess the key.

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Storage of NFA Firearms

To avoid unauthorized transfers, registrants must store NFA firearms so that no one else has access to them. Firearms may be stored at locations other than the address on the firearm registration form, such as a safe deposit box. However, unless the registrant is a Federal firearms licensee who has paid the special (occupational) tax to import, manufacture, or deal in NFA firearms, the NFA Branch should be notified in writing of the new storage location.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/nfab/index.htm

 

[ctdonath]

357:
Too late, it's the Canadian accent with "eh? no?" that got me. Now she's dragging me to GA. Any good in-GA suppressor makers? for Ruger Mk.II in particular?

 

[s&w 24]

no I don't think this would be legal. If you were a Georgia resident then moved back to New York and then re-established residency in NY you would have an NFA registed item that had a false registery(I.E. incorrect address). If your seirious obout NFA stuff move to VT.

An example would be If I'm a WI resident with a non-C&R NFA item and I move to MN I have to sell the NFA item as I am no longer a resident of that state and have no legal right to own the non C&R NFA item in MN. Like it or lump it it's the law.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

If you want the easy, legal way to own NFA items in a different state than you reside, form a corporation in a NFA friendly state and use that to acquire NFA items.

 

[ctdonath]

Preacherman:
I'm not trying to evade, I'm trying to comply. 444 just posted a fitting explaination:

This is no different than the so-called "assult weapons ban". We all know that we could buy a rifle that was essentially the same as existed before the ban. We all know that the law only banned meaningless cosmetic features of the rifles. We all know that the law did absolutely nothing to prevent or deter crime. All we had to do was comply with the law. Manufacturers modifyed their designs to comply with the law and we bought them: even if the law made no sense. This whole AR15 pistol thing is exactly the same: a law exists. In full complience with that law we acheive the same results as if the law didn't exist. We are not finding ways around the law, we are fully complying by the law.

I want to own an SBR and a suppressor. Circumstances will place me outside NY for a prolonged period (I might even not come back 'cept for visits). So long as the suppressor never enters NY, and the rifle (fitted with a >16" barrel when entering NY) never fits NY's explicit definition of a SBR when in NY, NY and federal law is fully complied with. A prosecutor would be hard-pressed to convince a jury that compliance with the law is a punishable offense.

 

[Zrex]

Any good in-GA suppressor makers?

SWR is in Evans, GA. They have a reputation as being one of the best, but are pricey. I've got a QD3k for my Uzi.

www.swrmfg.com

 

[444]

GA Suppressors: I bought three this year from Advanced Armament Corp. including a Ruger Mk.II. They are located in Lilburn, Ga. http://www.advanced-armament.com/default.asp

As I mentioned in that other thread. We allow them to make the rules. We play their game. As long as we fully comply by the rules THEY set down, I can't see how anyone could fault you for doing something wrong. Even if the people who made the rules screwed up and the result wasn't their intent, it doesn't matter: they made the rules and we followed them. If we put a thumbhole stock on an AK, if we produce an identical rifle other than the flash suppressor+bayonet lug+collapsable stock we are not circumventing the law, we are not doing an end around: WE ARE COMPLYING WITH THE LAW EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN. Again, we let them make the rules and we are following their rules. I can't see how we could be any more fair.

 

[444]

To continue beating a dead horse, let's say that you and I decide to play a game. I say that I have a great game that I made up. Rule #1 is that I always win. Rule #2 is that anytime you score a point, everyone including members your own team accuse you of cheating. #3) If at anytime you start winning, I can change the rules so that you have to change your stradegy in order to continue playing and the members of your team either agree or do nothing to stop the rule changes. #4) Everytime you change your stradegy to comply with the new rules, everyone including your own team accuses you of cheating and again change the rules so that I win and most of your teamates either agree or don't put up any fight in your defense.

Sound familiar ?

 

[Hkmp5sd]

So long as the suppressor never enters NY, and the rifle (fitted with a >16" barrel when entering NY) never fits NY's explicit definition of a SBR when in NY, NY and federal law is fully complied with.

The problem you may encounter is that if you do move back to NY, you must submit ATF Form 5320.20 Appl. to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms, informing ATF of your new place of residence. This is required for the SBR. It does not matter what barrel you physically have attached, the receiver is still considered a SBR as far as ATF is concerned. As your SBR will not be legal to possess at your new place of residence, ATF will not approve the application. While you do not have to inform ATF when transporting a suppressor across state lines, you will still have to inform them of the change in residence on that too.

So you are stuck. You cannot legally take the NFA items to NY and you cannot change the address on your registration as required by law.

 

[ctdonath]

Hkmp5sd:
Good point on getting permission from BATFE to relocate it.
Twisted catch is that, given a >16" barrel, it would be legal under NY law (what another agency in another gov't jurisdiction calls it is irrelevant), but BATFE may not grant the permission anyway.

Sounds like a letter to BATFE is in order.

 

[Deavis]

Hkmp5sd:

Thanks for the ATF opinion and clearing that up. I learned something, yet again

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Sounds like a letter to BATFE is in order.

No need. Deavis managed to jog my memory.

(M23) If an individual is changing his or her State of residence and the individual’s application to transport the NFA firearm cannot be approved, what options does a lawful possessor have?

NFA firearms may be left in a safe deposit box in his or her former State of residence. Also, the firearm could be left or stored in the former State of residence at the house of a friend or relative in a locked room or container to which only the registered owner has a key. The friend or relative should be supplied with a copy of the registration forms and a letter from the owner authorizing storage of the firearm at that location. The NFA Branch must be notified of the location at which the firearms are stored.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/qa.pdf