SureFire clones...Any Good?

[basicblur]

A lot of cutting edge stuff is being done overseas on LED technology and user interface.

Mebbe, but do you really want cutting edge stuff on a light used for SD?
I do get a kick outta seeing folks get all excited 'bout 7 light modes, turbo mode, activation that requires two hands and various gyrations, etc-to me, a light should (listed in order of importance):
1. Turn off when you want it to.
2. Turn on when you want it to.

Jest the other day I ran across some YouTube videos of fellas showing off their new lights-more than once the screen would go dark as they were going to demonstrate, followed by (more darkness) and a lot of mumbling as they tried to figure out how to activate it or get it to the mode they wanted to demonstrate.

It was pretty comical...

 

[highorder]

but do you really want cutting edge stuff on a light used for SD?

basicblur, I don't see where anyone mentioned SD and cutting edge tech. Lots of us are flashlight enthusiasts who are interested in the bleeding edge of technology.

Color rendition, output, efficiency, thermal management, runtimes, etc... It's all an experiment.

 

[basicblur]

basicblur, I don't see where anyone mentioned SD and cutting edge tech.

Don't know that they did as I didn't go back through all the threads, but they should. I was merely offering it as a public service announcement!
Sometimes (unbridled?) enthusiasm can get one into trouble.

I've seen a number of folks getting 'cutting edge' lights to keep by the bed with their gun-I got a feeling when that bump in the night comes, a number of 'em are going to be like the folks in the YouTube videos (fumblin', bumblin', mumblin') as they try to figure out 'zactly which of the 7 modes they want (or how) to access it in order to light somebody up.

But I'm a pragmatist donchaknow (jest a square peg in today's round world)!

 

[Cesiumsponge]

No on here mentioned anything about 356 different disco modes. We did mention color rendition and efficiency. Surefire is bad at efficiency compared to other offerings out there. Their battery choice of CR123 also limited their market while other brands have aggressively taken over some of the market share by offering lights that can take readily available AA batteries.

There are some disco lights but the better designed units have fantastic fumble-kess user interfaces which expands their utilitarian role. Surefire has also started to slowly incorporate the dual or multimode UI.

Of course, Surefire didn't like losing sales and eventually caved in with their AA Outdoorsman and Saint headlamps. The market fired back with lights that could take a wide variety of batteries. This is especially important if you're on an expedition or deployed in some hole where CR123 batteries are not available. You can find AA batteries anywhere.

 

[basicblur]

No on here mentioned anything about 356 different disco modes.

But you did mention cutting edge technology-I'm a' gonna haff to pass as I prefer something with a bit more of a history behind it.

Surefire is bad at efficiency

Don't look at me...I ain't defending Surefire-don't own any, but I am mulling over trying one to see what all the fuss is about.

Their battery choice of CR123 also limited their market while other brands have aggressively taken over some of the market share by offering lights that can take readily available AA batteries.

I tried a few AA battery lights-at this time I'm sticking with CR123. They're becoming more available, they're lithium (temperature/shelf life advantages) and best I can do if I want AA lithiums is a roughly a 25% higher price than I pay for CR123 lithiums.

There are two sides to every story donchknow...

 

[IBEWBULL]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Streamlight-Stinger-Flashlight-and-home-charger-/290491179354?pt=US_Flashlights&hash=item43a29fa15a

I have been using Streamlight for years now and can not complain.
Here is a deal I found today.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

I guess cutting edge technology is a misnomer and a misleading term. What I should have said is that it's existing technology, but finally applied to LED lighting purposes.

Lithium AA's, such as the Energizer E2's aren't really more expensive unless you're using the 99 cent CR123 batteries as comparison. It works out to about $15/8 pack or about $2ea which is similar to the US-made Surefire CR123's for $2ea. There are a few threads on CPF that show the cheaper Chinese-made lithiums failing catastrophically. However it's hard to tell just how common this problem is. I'm sure all batteries of all brands have instances of catastrphic failure and ironically enough, the best-performing li-ions right now for hardcore flashlight users are the AW brand made in China.

One other positive aspect of the AA train is the suitability of using good Ni-MH rechargables. They pay off fairly quickly for an EDC light and it's essentially guilt-free lumens for higher powered lights that can gobble up. The Sanyo Eneloops lose maybe 10-20% of their charge over a 1-3 year period now if left unused (depends on the generation Eneloop you buy). That's a lot better than the old Ni-MH which go dead after a month.

Either way, I suppose it's a good thing that the flashlight world continues to move forward on all fronts. The Surefire clones make good host bodies for the huge aftermarket available to Surefire and Surefire clone bodies.

 

[NWdude83]

Have you checked out Surefire's new G2X? 200 lumens at a regulated 2hrs, 5.2", 2xCR123s. $55 for single mode, $65 for dual mode.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

I've actually been hankering the incandescent A2 Aviator so I can try an onion ring, do the nav LED sandpaper mod, and drop in Fivemega's Strion bulb kit for it so I get better output without a hit in battery life, plus end up with cheaper bulbs to replace. I really wish Surefire continued to develop their regulated incandescent technology but the Aviator was pretty much the first and last.

I actually like the fact they're starting to branch out and incorporate more technology on their newest line of stuff. I'd like the M3LT and the E2DL as well, but one at a time I suppose.

 

[basicblur]

Actually, the one Surefire that has peaked my interest a bit is the Z2-S LED.
'Course, It would be for experimental/educational purposes-it may not be better than my current bed gun light, but at least it's twice the price! :banghead:

BTW-anybody know of anyone selling Surefires at less than MSRP?
I assume Surefire is requiring dealers to sell at MSRP based on the lack of competitive pricing I can find on the 'Net.

I just dunno if I can talk myself into spending MSRP on the Z2-S.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

If I recall, there might be a person or two on CPF that sells for less than MAP (minimum advertised pricing) but that can jeopardize your dealer status. If you're a member, there is a known thread with all the forum-participating vendors with coupon codes for forum members, usually something like 5-10% off or free shipping. Surefire indeed does require MAP to be a dealer. Most of the Surefire dealers have to find alternative ways to make the purchase more worthwhile to the buyer, such as throwing in a box or three of free batteries (depending on the value of the light). If you're lucky, you can find the free battery deal with a coupon code.

The only other solution is to buy them second-hand on the forums.

I have carried the Surefire C2 for a while and I think the Z2 would be an interesting try. It's basically the same concept, but without a pocket clip. I've had some hesitations with the C2 when carrying in my pocket because the rubber donuts tend to catch the pocket, making it difficult to retrieve. As a nightstand light, the Z2-S looks nice since there is no worry about indexing it to avoid the pocket clip if you're using the Surefire/Rogers grip.

 

[basicblur]

Well I couldn't stand it any longer-I just had to buy a Surefire to see what all the fuss was about.
Actually, I bought 2! :banghead:

I got the Z2-S LED CombatLight/w Strobe and E2D LED Defender (managed to scrounge up a too small discount on 'em).
They're brighter than any of my Streamlights, but it's close. The Defender really throws a tight/long beam, and the CombatLight is slightly brighter than my Streamlight Nightfighter, but it does have a bigger circle of peripheral light.
The CombatLight is a non-regulated light, while the Defender is regulated (one of the few Surefire's that is?).

Bottom line...
1. They are physically nicer than the Streamlights-the Defender maybe a bit too aggressively styled for civilians?
2. Worth the difference in price? Probably not for civilians.
3. The Streamlights might be preferable for civilians? My PT-2L Streamlight (very roughly an equivalent for the Defender?) is much less aggressively styled and thus quite a bit smaller. As such, the PT-2L is on my belt at all times-it's probably 'bout 1/2 the size of the Defender after in its pouch.
4. Power regulation might be nice on the CombatLight, but I don't know that it's critical as it's role is for use with a handgun (probably will stay with my bed gun)-don't plan on using it for an all-purpose light.
5. The Defender is one heckuva torch! (the brightest light I have).

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Surefire is considered a benchmark standard and is a commonly used product to make comparisons. It all depends on what you want to do with your light and how deep your pockets go. The price difference for top notch stuff is probably worth it to people besides MIL/LEO who depend on their gear like SAR, spelunkers, rock climbing, etc., or folks who want to buy peace of mind.

They're going to be machined a lot nicer than most commercially-available flashlights and while doesn't necessarily justify the cost given the production volume, people will pay for the nice knurling and design. Streamlight doesn't really make anything in the same price range but Streamlight products are well-proven in the field so I wouldn't hesitate on them myself. They just don't look as fancy. I own the TLR-1 light myself and it's lived happily on my 870. Generally the only products that surpass Surefire are small companies that turn out premium/luxury lights, which is a very small market.

I don't think Surefire does direct drive for any of their LED lights. Most LEDs today run at 3.x volts and current limited and most of Surefire's line runs at 6V+. Direct drive LEDs are not nearly as common, especially with potential of battery mishaps. There are a lot of different topologies to use, such as buck/boost or pulse width modulation and how they are implemented can affect their output over time and the efficiency. What I believe you might be thinking of is the Surefire A2 Aviator, which was a incandescent model with LED secondary mode. The incandescent bulb was voltage-regulated so it didn't go dim like a stock Maglite.

 

[basicblur]

The incandescent bulb was voltage-regulated so it didn't go dim like a stock Maglite.

When I was referring to regulated, I was speaking mostly of the Streamlight styled feature which allows about 2 hours of run time before dropping to a 'safe/emergency' mode at much lower output-you'll have plenty of warning when it's time to change the batteries-they shouldn't just 'go dead' on you all of a sudden, which I've heard some folks complain 'bout with some lights.

I bought me a fancy battery load tester, and iff'n you can believe it, the CR123's in my Streamlight Nightfighter are down to 'bout 10%, but it still puts out a nice bit of light. I probably got 'bout 2 hours of high output before it reverted to its emergency mode-I'm leaving 'em in there just to see how long they will continue to drive the light-they've been plugging along for quite a while. Steamlight has data sheets on their lights with graphs of time vs. output-Surefire seems to be awfully stingy on such info-heck, I had to e-mail 'em for a PDF owner manual for each light-they did e-mail 'em back to me, but I couldn't find owner manuals on their site.

Mebbe we weren't on the same page AFA light regulation when I was talking to the Surefire rep over the phone, but their literature states the Defender is regulated, the CombatLight (by omission) is not-I called to verify the CombatLight was not regulated and was told it was not.

They may have been speaking of voltage regulation-I was speaking more of time/output management, which is pretty much voltage regulation over time.

Didn't make much difference, as I had already decided to take a chance on 'em to see what all the fuss was about.

Like you, I have a number of Streamlight/Insight weapon lights/lasers, as I managed to scrounge 'em up at big discounts, which is impossible to do with Surefire's MAP pricing.

 

[Hot brass]

I like surefire and Fenix

 

[swinokur]

www.elzetta.com