Survival strategies -- long term

[NMshooter]

Not to belabor the obvious, but to use Halffast's term, the world is full of MZBs.

People will always need folks to stand watch while they build and sleep.

Although it is good to know other stuff too where are the watch standers going to come from?

If you look in the mirror you will see someone who would end up doing it at least part time in some capacity, whether that person wants to or not.

 

[junyo]

I think the key is being versatile. Post disaster you really don't need or want a specialist; the cost/benefit for feeding/housing someone that can only do one thing, no matter how well, would be difficult to justify if you're the head of the tribe. And even if you decided it was worth it, you probably couldn't afford two in the same functional area, so now you've created a single point of failure situation, where with one doctor you're always a heartbeat away from having no doctors. On the other hand, a guy that knows first aid, can cook for groups, is a reliable hunter, can usually get the truck running, and is a good guy at the wheel, can build structures that won't collapse from the first breeze, and handy with a gun, is measurably worth more to you. He doesn't have the depth of knowledge or skill, but the breath of it creates lot of skill redundancies that make the group a lot more likely to have a skill available when it's critically needed. Not only that but since the individual skillsets aren't identical, the combined skillset makes up for a lot of the lost depth. A bunch of SCA members would totally rule.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I know I keep harping on this, but there's no time like the present
to start taking a first aid/CPR class at the Red Cross. But, let's
go a big step farther and take some EMT classes at a community
college. Those of you in the mil/LE can take Combat Life Saver
classes, etc. and end up with your own supplies.

Learn how to grow your own food and provide clean water. Just
doing that will keep you 75% ahead in the game.

I think there's way too much emphasis on "what kind of gun should
I have." And, unfortunately not much of a plan past that except
maybe a few weeks of food/water. Not much of a skill set that
works outside the 1st World either. What will happen in either a
sudden collapse (or a slow falling back to a 19th century lifestyle)
for these people who have a rifle, a lot of ammo, and no more food?
They may very well end up part of the problem.

Quite frankly, there may not be enough business for "Security Contractors"
in either scenario. Don't expect to show up at someone's farm after
the rioting, looting, pillaging, gang warfare, and marauding have long
since quieted down and sit on your butt all day with a rifle thinking
you're someone special because you rode out the whole thing safely
in a suburban safe-room. If you expect to eat, you'd better help
toil the soil.

But, here's a couple great jobs for former 1st Worlders who lack
low-tech skills in an economic regression: Septic Cleaner and
Water Hauler. You will always find <someone> who will pay you
to bucket out the sludge in their septic tank or haul fresh water in the
wheelbarrow. Preferably for health reasons, not on the same day!

 

[NMshooter]

TBL, I agree with you except when you start talking about that farm.

What farm? The one that was burned to the ground, the livestock slaughtered, the equipment used for target practice?

Or the one where the farmer found 20-30 folks to make sure that would not happen to him?

I think if things were to get as bad as you suggest a lot of rural folks would get the dubious pleasure of meeting thousands of not very nice people moving through the area like locusts, or maybe more like Mongols, Huns, Celts, and numerous other peoples throughout history.

And if things were that bad there would be no such thing as a "safe" room.

History is an interesting and sometimes frightening subject, especially when you realize how often it repeats itself. Read up on the Thirty Years War. Or many recent conflicts, for that matter.

 

[Art Eatman]

NMshooter, I've always thought that one would be able to tell some days to weeks ahead of time whether there would be some serious breakdown. If you don't already have an established second home where you're already known, you might at least have some sort of property in a fairly remote location.

If you get out before a total breakdown, you need to be more than one tank of gasoline from any major urban area. As we've seen of the Gulf Coast area after Katrina, many people voiced the problem of a lack of gasoline because of no electricity at the pumps. I am reading that the rescue efforts inside the city of New Orleans are having that same problem.

Distance reduces the numbers of Hostiles with which one must deal. One of my "5%" reasons for Terlingua is just that very thing. ("Survival" isn't why I'm here; it's just something to which I've given thought.)

If you're an outsider, you have to sell yourself to the local community. That's where knowledge comes in. If you've planned ahead, you might even have deliberately acquired Useful Stuff that's duplicative and could be given to the community as a sort of "entry fee"...

A single person or family definitely will have much more trouble over a period of years than the person or family who readily becomes part of some group that's acclimated to the needs of long-term survival.

For anybody who believes that there will be some sort of major societal breakdown in the next "X" number of years, now is the time for serious planning, and moving should be done at no later than "X - 2" years. Dental work is done, appendix is out, spare eyeglasses with the NEXT level of correction are on hand, friends are made, one's place in the community is secured, and on X-Day you're already at home, drinking a beer and listening to the radio or watching whatever TV is left. You and your neighbors go, "Tch, tch," and figure out the near-term...

Art

 

[Remington788]

I grew up on the family farm (both livestock and grain) so I have a "jack of all trades" base of knowledge. I also spent ten years in construction using both hand tools and heavy equipment so I can build, or repair residential structures and if it has motor I can operate it (including planes). My current job requires me to shoot unwanted animals for the local airport so I have good skills with firearms. Basically my skills and brain would let me remain usefull after a SHTF event. My wife has great organizational skills, but thats about it so I need to get her interested in something usefull.

 

[Hardware]

I've always been a motorhead and mechanic. Tinkering around with cars and rehabilitating wrecks out of the junkyard provided me with my first few cars.

I started off in the remodelling business. Still not bad at it now that I have my own house to practice on. I could frame up, roof and weatherproof a quick house plus do most of the wiring and plumbing given the materials. I've even got experience making a log cabin, but that is homemaking the hard way!

I got into working with the retarded and mentally ill for about 7 years. Unless someone needs a person who can ride herd on any politicians left over after the SHTF, no joy there.

My current career in computers and telecom isn't too much help. I could wire up phones and data lines. But not much use if there's no power.

 

[NineseveN]

Carpentry
Welding
Computer Technology (maybe useless).
Food prep



But, if society collapses, there is only one set of skills I care about, survival skills to live off the land in the mountains, which I have confidence in my own ability to do so. I'll come down from the highlands when I know everything is safe, then I'll help rebuild the infrastructure.

My BoB is simply enough supplies to get me there, survival skills take over for hunting/gathering/shelter once I am there.

Excellent question pax.

 

[Thin Black Line]

NMs,

The "farm" IMHO is still the best option for "Survival strategies -- long term."
It's certainly possible to have 20-30 people on the "farm" as long as that
number of people can be sustained on it. Yes, I do understand that such
a fixed location is at risk. I'm aware of how that works in "recent conflicts"
because I've been in one. But, yes, I've also read some books on the topic,
and got a degree to round things out a bit....

As far as running to the hills, woods, or desert to get away from everyone
and living off the land, that's very hard to do. I seriously doubt most people
who say they can do that "long-term" have ever had to do it for 30 days, let
alone a week without packing in outside supplies. I'd consider 6 mos a little
closer to "long-term" than 30 days or less, though. Is there anyone on this
thread who's done that for 30 days? I'd like to know more.

 

[NineseveN]

I did 3 months.

An no, it isn't easy, but it all depends on the level of discomfort you are willing to accept for survival. I did it for fun and lasted the entire 88 days...if I had to, I can extrapolate that even 6 months is doable. It is not fun after the first 15-20 days, that's for sure...you start to miss things pretty quickly when your body realizes you're not on vacation anymore, this is 'home' for the time being.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Sounds great. Was this 88 days with all food from the environment around
you? What did your typical daily meals consist of?

 

[NineseveN]

Packed in about 25 of the S.O.S. 3600 calorie bars and 3 small jars of peanut butter (same as in my BoB). Carried as much water as I could hold (2 liters I believe, which is about what's in my survival bag), and a few hundred water purification tablets.

A couple packs or ramen noodles, salt, pepper, a home made spice mixture. After that, once I got settled, it was living off the land. Diet consisted of harvested fish, small game, fruits/vegetation. I hate fish, but it is amazing how good trout tastes after living off of 3600 calorie "cardboard-flavored" bars and peanut butter for a few days.

You can make a make-shift smoke house out of a tarp, some large sticks, rope (para-cord) and a small fire. Smoking overnight will give you about 5 days until it spoils. 2-3 days of smoking gives about 3-4 weeks. I concentrate on small game, and even though I hate fish, with a net placed correctly in a stream, they're pretty easy to catch and make no noise. When I can, I boil the fish with the skin on (holds in a lot of the fat and protein).

It's not fun, it's not easy, and some days you don't eat. I can go about 3 days only eating light vegetation and maybe some ants or worms if I can find them. As long as I have water, a few fish per week will get me by. During the winter, this would be a bit harder. Harvesting mammals becomes more important, and smoking the meats is not imperative (since you can store meat in the cold) but it's a nice touch when you can get away with it. Small Deer, if you are able to gut and clean deer, work well provided you can make a smoke tent or store all that meat...a smoking pit will work too for smoking, though I haven't tried that yet. Salt curing works well i hear, never tried it myself as I didn't want to lug all of that salt in with me. : -)

One thing I have never resorted to eating is mushrooms, I abhor them. But if it were my life VS eating a mushroom, salt tongue, eat.


In the end, I spent probably 4-5 hours a day foraging for food and preparing it. But I figured since I didn't have to go to work, what else was I gonna do?

 

[hillbilly]

I grew up in rural Arkansas.

By the time I was 8 years old, I knew how to plant, grow, and harvest the following:

corn, beans, potaotes, tomatos, squash, melons, turnips, onions, garlic, cucumbers, peach trees, and just about any kind of ornamental bush or flower you can think of.

As I got older, canning the produce as well as several different types of cooking were added to my repetoir.

I can make biscuits and gravy in a dutch oven over an open fire,

If it's meat of any kind, I can smoke it, fry it, roast it, stew it, jerk it, however you want it cooked.

I can also make alcohol out of just about any of the edible stuff I can grow.

I can also catch fish, hunt game, use several different types of traps, do minor household carpentry, saddle and ride horses, manage livestock of various kinds, raise chickens, and do just about anything else you'd expect a boy growing up on a rural Arkansas farm should know how to to.

For example, when I go fishing in the spring, and I want to use live bait, I typically don't wait to get my bait until I get to the creek bank. I know how to find earthworms and can throw a cast net.

I participated in "hog killings" when I was as young as six years old.....I got the job of washing off and sacking up the kidneys, the "lights" and the other organ meats you can't buy at most grocery stores.

And yes, I currently live on 30 rural, wooded acres in Arkansas.

And yes, we put out a garden every year......at the very least enough tomato vines to supply our complete tomato supply, cucumbers, as well as various berry bushes, herbs, and sunflowers.

We put out green beans this year, and right now, I have enough seeds left over to plant next spring.

I don't raise chickens at the moment, but I know where I could lay my hands on a bunch of them quickly. And yes, I do have a chicken coop, complete, intact, and only awaiting tenants, on the premises.

And I absolutely refuse to quote any Hank Williams Jr. lyrics at this particular point in time.

But there is a reason my THR handle is "hillbilly."

 

[earonthief]

Great topic PAX. In a long term TEOTWAWKI it's not going to be a specific skill that is going to be wanted, so much as a good work ethic and being able to fit in. Not to say Doc's, mechanics, et.al. wont be wanted. But when the crops are ready to harvest, will the Doc set down his bag and pick beans until his medical services are needed? Never sell yourself short(not directed at you PAX ). We all have skills that are needed. And now is the time to learn new ones. While we have the luxury.

Now is also a good time to intrest your children and grandchildren.

 

[hillbilly]

NMShooter wrote:


I think if things were to get as bad as you suggest a lot of rural folks
would get the dubious pleasure of meeting thousands of not very nice
people moving through the area like locusts, or maybe more like
Mongols, Huns, Celts, and numerous other peoples throughout history.


That could be true.

But if something like that really did happen, I know what I and a few of my neighbors would do.

We would use a chainsaw with some siphoned gas and drop a great big tree across the one dirt road we all live on.

And then, we would lie in wait near that downed tree and ambush the bejeezus out of any locusts who made it down our road and who stopped to get out and move the downed tree from the road, especially if they were packing useful stuff like gasoline, or extra batteries or potato chips and beer.

Anyone who stopped several yards from the downed tree, and intelligently turned around, we would let go and figure they weren't real locusts, but just honest folks who got lost.

I figure we'd pick up all kinds of neat, useful supplies and gear that way.....

hillbilly

 

[NMshooter]

One of the points I am trying to make is that there are lots of folks capable of work. I know many who so long as you provide them with what they need can turn out whatever you need. I do not know many people who could take care of themselves in the manner suggested by some.

After talking to a friend of mine who used to farm here in New Mexico I learned some valuable lessons:

1. Modern farming is heavily reliant on fuel. Fuel to run the tractors, combiners, all the machinery required to allow a relatively small number of people to cultivate a large plot of land. In my state this includes the fuel required to run the generators that power the electric water pumps used to irrigate the crops.

2. You have to buy seeds. And fertilizer. And lots of other stuff. If you do not make enough money from the year's crops you end up in debt.

3. A lot of what was once farmland is now paved over. We can ship (or rather truck) grain from Nebraska much easier than growing it here, so why not sell the farm and cash in on the real estate boom.

So, there we are, in the hypothetical disaster, reduced to a 19th century level of existance. We are not 19th century people, nor are we strictly limited to period conventions and technology.

Will millions of Americans simply give up and starve to death? Some might, but others will not. In addition to the MZBs (as good a term as any) you will find people willing to follow anyone offering them what they need to work. In some cases the end result will be good. In others you will see former military and police doing their best to help their people, even if that means bad consequenses for you. A few will be very bad, and it will take an organized effort by a lot of folks to stop these.

I am sorry for bringing up more questions than answers, but I am very short of solutions at the moment.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Good ?'s though nonetheless.

It is probably much harder to grow food in NM's climate/soil (only been
there and AZ 3x's) than in IL, IN, MI etc. and other areas of the American
Midwest's breadbasket to the world. That is where I would plan on farming
for long-term survival. Certainly not the southwest or either of our major
mountain ranges. Many people still do save their seeds. Organic, no/low
fuel ag is making a comeback and a one acre garden can be done on
raised beds using only hand tools --like grandma use to use. Proper
composting on a raised bed doesn't even require a roto-tiller. Growing
our own food can still be done the old-fashioned way.

Grain will get more expensive to ship as fuel prices increase. Ag needs
to become more local anyway. If we were in a LT Survival Situation,
fuel costs and shipping become a moot point. Especially if Peak Oil is
true. Sure, that's another topic. So is cross-pollination of organic
plants with GM plants.

There is plenty of space in this country that is not paved under Detroit
or the dry stony areas of Santa Fe or Phoenix. I was reading not too
long ago about a family that grew all the food they required on raised
beds/terraces in a 1/4 acre back yard. There is a reason, though, why
throughout most of history people did not live in the desert. Food can't
be reliably grown there to feed enough people. IMHO, it seems like
completely poor planning for people to be moving to places like Las Vegas
and Phoenix --two of our fastest growing cities. How long would it
take for those places to erupt into chaos if the grid goes down LT or
the water from up north stopped flowing? Where would they get their
food a year later? You're right, some people would band together and
set up some good systems of production and trade, others could be
harmful. Some local governments will probably survive completely
intact until some new federal/regional or foreign army steps in. There
are too many scenarios to consider.

9-7, it sounded like you packed in the minimum to get started. Sounds
like a good 88-day experiment in survival ....or escape from a bad divorce?
My concern is when the time goes beyond that and malnutrition becomes a
factor. Your starting % of body fat and diet prior to a time of deprivation
is also a major factor. What kind of local plants did you eat? I have no
problem with mushrooms since morrels are here in the midwest and easy to
id. They're really just good for flavor.

HillBilly, as long as you are able to stay on your land and have good
harvests, you're probably farther along on the LT plan than most of us!

Final Note:

Yes, I read both the American Rifleman and Mother Earth News.....I'm
either well-rounded or insane....

 

[sturmruger]

My goal is to get out of town and out into the country. There is just something reasuring about having your own well and septic. I plan to have two methods to heat the house, and good backup generator. I am also going to put in a spare refrigerator that runs on LP so I don't need the generator on all the time.


Do you think it is better to plan for 90 days without power or just prepare to for never having the power back??

 

[Thin Black Line]

Hmmm. Either 90 days (or less) or Never. If you only run the gen for
well pumping or some other short critical power usage, it's quite easy to
store enough fuel for 90 days.

Never is a completely different scenario. At some point your stored
petroleum-based fuel is going to run out. You either plan on living in
the 19th Century or you have to consider solar or wind and a battery
bank with inverter. You will have a low-energy lifestyle compared to
now, but you could easily do lights, laptop, radio, etc. Depending on
where you live it could be quite expensive to set up a high wattage
system without it being etrememly expensive. Deep well pumping could
still be a problem. A single solar panel won't do that, but it will
easily support the laptop, radio, etc. However, prior to laptops with
DVD players, we use to entertain ourselves with things that didn't
require batteries --such as reading books or playing musical
instruments. Such things can also be great boosts for morale
which is extremely important in LT Survival.

You have to ask yourself if $20K for a modern renewable energy
system is worth it, or could you live an even simpler lifestyle and
use that $$$ for learning new skills: gardening, medicine, etc
and acquiring the tools that go with it.

 

[ravencon]

A great topic to ponder. Does anyone here remember the survivalism movement of the late 1970's? I still have my copies of Mel Tappan's great newsletter. I also remember when the serial apocalypse hustler Gary Noth was first getting into the business.

I know people who took this stuff very seriously and moved to survivalist friendly locales to take up self-reliant living. Some took to it and thrived on the life style. Others ended up miserably waiting (hoping?) for the end of the world in a place they came to hate doing things they despised to get by until the collapse of civilization that never came.

 

[pax]

I dunno that I was thinking so much "survivalist" as much as, "What would I/we do if I/we had to start over from scratch, like the folks fleeing New Orleans?"

The best answer seems to be to have a profession in good times and a trade you can fall back on in bad ones. Trades are more portable than professions, and seem to last better when bad times hit.

pax

 

[griz]

My real job is very location specific (I work in wind tunnels and you just don't find them in every town), but I have worked as a mechanic and machinist so I figure that would convey.

But if you don't need high wages, I think somebody willing to work can always get a job in most any economy. I remeber a guy writing about making money during the depression. He said even though people didn't have much to spend, many were willing to pay for worms to use as bait. There's always some job that others think is below them or don't have time for.

 

[telomerase]

learn UNIX

The most likely disaster isn't a return to medieval times. It's a world with an RFID tag in every manufactured product, a GPS collar on every person, and x-ray scanners in the bus terminals. (The return to medieval times may follow quickly thereafter, if the rulers actually try to directly run the economy a la Pol Pot or FEMA).

You can't fight SKYNET by learning to play the lute or slop the pigs.