Suspicious ammo, what to do?

[Swampert]

I went ammo shopping yesterday, and I was fortunate enough to finally find a box of .303 british for my WW2 Enfield. I paid the equivalent of $50 for a box of 20 rounds of 174 gr. Remington FMJs, but when I god home I noticed that the ammo were in a different condition than I expected, and I suspect that they may be reloads. There were even a non-remington case amongst the 20.


The one on the left is obviously not a Remington.


I suspect that the slight damages on these casings are from previous firings and extractions. Many casings look as if they have been used more than once.


The largest single ding on any of the casings.

My questions are:

1) Would you use these rounds?

2) Would you reload these casings?

 

[Snowdog]

Use? No, not unless it was obviously from a reputable company that loads once-fired brass.
Reload? Sure. Dump the powder and reuse the rest.

I recently purchased 60 rounds of HXP from a friend of a buddy for $10. The deals are out there, but perhaps less so in Europe.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Break them down and save the components. I would not fire a unknown reload.

Ammo sure is spendy in Europe.

 

[Gtimothy]

YUP, those sure do look like reloads to me!

If you reload, pull the bullet and dump the powder. Everything else looks fine to shoot.

If you DON'T reload, then you may want to consider starting! $50.00 for a box of ammunition...WOW!

 

[Slamfire]

never shoot someone else's reloads!

I have a friend who bought some estate sale ammunition and this is what he had to say about it:

Another reason to NEVER shoot someone else's reloads!

The following applies to every shooter, not just handloaders.

I went by a gun shop this afternoon and found the owner had a crate of mixed ammunition for sale. All of it was from an estate sale and was being disposed of. There was a single box of .45-70 rounds there. The box was the yellow and red Winchester design used from the late 60's through the 70's and said "umprimed cases". Inside, the cases were in just like new condition; the factory cannelure had not been ironed out by firing so they were all unfired. They were all primed and loaded with jacketed hollow point bullets. I shook the case and could hear powder shake. I presumed that the rounds were loaded with smokeless powder and thought I'd break them down as I had no idea what was inside and, from the sound, the powder took up about 90% of the case volume. I bought the box from the owner and as we discussed the ammo he cautioned me they were reloads. I assured him I was going to break them down.

This evening, I pulled the bullets and found inside . . . a bomb! Most of the powder was small, irregular granules very similar in appearance to FFFg black powder. I thought that was a bad sign as any BP round is supposed to be loaded to 100% density or else you stand the chance of ringing your bore. BP burns so fast that when it burns through an air space between the powder and bullet and then hits the base of the bullet, the bullet acts like an obstruction in the bore and can cause a ring or bulge in the bore or worse. Then, I noticed there was a small amount of extruded smokeless powder granules similar in appearance to IMR 3031 mixed in. The bases of the bullets were jet black with, I thought, graphite.

To see if the powder was indeed black powder, I took a small amount, about 8 gr., put it on a board and held a flame against it. It did not ignite instantly like BP; it took about 2 seconds to ignite but when it diid, it made a large fireball, bigger say, that 8 gr. of Bullseye or other fast burning smokeless powder. It burned quicker than black powder as well. It was some type of smokeless powder as it just did not smell like BP. I still have no idea what the powder is but two possibilities are: blank powder mixed with an IMR powder. Blank powder has a burning rate many times faster than Bullseye and was never intended to be used with bullets. If the contents of the case was 50 or so grains of blank powder, it would have detonated and destroyed any rifle. The other possibility was DuPont PB, an old shotgun powder. Pressure with PB would not have been as high as with blank powder but the result would probably been the same.

In either event, firing these rounds would have been a terrible mistake and just reinforces the adage to shoot only your own reloads.

 

[303tom]

I would use them, looks like a mix of Frontier/ie, Hornady & R-P/ie, Remington-Peters, woppie it`s got a dent in it, it will fire form out, use em...............All I can say is 50 bucks is awful high for a box of .303.

 

[HOOfan_1]

The dimples on the cases are lube dents, made when too much resizing lube was used and the resizing die pushed the lube into the case causing a dimple. Hint that they are reloads...and reloaded by someone who probably didn't know very well what they were doing

 

[gbeecher]

Yikes!!

NO, don't shoot them and NO, don't reload them! I just did a web surf where I buy my ammo at SGAmmo.com and they have Prvi Partizan 180 grain soft-point .303 British for $12.95 for a 20 round box. Where did you get that ammo and who the hell made it! Sorry to get so worked up, but it's a safety issue. Just ask the guy who posted about the AR M4 that blew up on him. Take care.

 

[35Rem]

Just an FYI:

Black Powder is an explosive. It does not burn, like smokeless powder.

 

[miniMacGuru]

I'm pretty sure SGAmmo only ships to the USA, which would the OP unable to order from them.

 

[Dr T]

Interesting pictures. To me, the CASES look old and tarnished, but unfired. If anything, the dents argue against their being RELOADS, per se. As someone noted, firing the cartridge will fireform out the dents.

Also, note the 180 degree crimp on the bullet. These are put in place by commercial loading equipment. And, Frontier was a "bargain" brand ammo from a number of years ago in the US (but I forget the mfg).

Look at the cases to see if there are any linear scratches along the case (indicates being put into a magazine. Also look at the body of the cartidge about 3/8" up from the rim. There will often be a change in color that is brought out by firing a round.

BUT, IF THERE IS ANY TRACE OF A DOUBT, DO NOT FIRE ANYONE ELSE'S RELOADS.

 

[303tom]

Them are factory loads, send em to me I`ll shoot em, you want me to PM you my address ? I`ll pay the shipping............

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

They look more like handloads due to the same bullet being used. This Highroader is in Europe.

 

[Snowdog]

I'm of the belief that those dents support the likelihood of being reloaded. After being extracted, ejected, kicked around, trampled upon on the range floor, dents occur. Resizing wont remove dents anywhere other than the neck and as mentioned by HOOfan 1, excessive lube will cause dents very similar to the last photo supplied.

My money is on these being reloaded and unless the they are reloaded from a known reputable source, I strongly advise against using unless you get your jollies from taking unnecessary risks.

As for Frontier, it is Hornady. Their brass is good.

 

[awgrizzly]

Bring them back to where you bought them and get your money back.

 

[2DREZQ]

x10 on the NEVER trust estate-sale reloads! Several years ago a fellow in my hometown bought several boxes of shotgun ammo at an auction. It was all old-factory loaded trap loads and was OK. Mixed in with them, however, was a few (dozen+) .44 Magnum rounds with Keith-type lead bullets. He pulled the bullets to salvage the cases...and found them to be COMPLETELY FULL, RIGHT TO THE BASE OF THE BULLET!

We don't know what type of powder it was, but can you imagine what might have happened if he had fired them in his Super-Blackhawk?

If you're going to shoot that ammo, might I suggest a rifle vise and a really, really LONG string?

 

[Swampert]

Oh how I wish that I could buy ammo online! However, even if I could get an import permit, I know of no mail service provider whom I could pay enough to handle the ammo once it reaches the border.

Following most of you guys advice, I am going to return the ammo to the shop next week. I would have salvaged the components and reloaded the ammo if I had the equipment, but unfortunately there is only so much room in my apartment.

Thank you for your time.

 

[gbeecher]

Oh how I wish that I could buy ammo online! However, even if I could get an import permit, I know of no mail service provider whom I could pay enough to handle the ammo once it reaches the border.

Following most of you guys advice, I am going to return the ammo to the shop next week. I would have salvaged the components and reloaded the ammo if I had the equipment, but unfortunately there is only so much room in my apartment.

Thank you for your time.

I'm sorry it worked out so poorly. I guess you're out the $50.00. Don't give up though - aren't there any reputable surplus dealers or ammo retailers where you are? At least here in the U.S., the .303 British is not hard to come by and is fairly reasonable in price. Keep trying - that's a wonderful rifle you've got there!

 

[leadcounsel]

Seller misrepresented materially and overcharged significantly. Fraud.

Return them and report him to where you bought them.

 

[Wildcat_Charlie]

I paid the equivalent of $50 for a box of 20 rounds of 174 gr. Remington FMJs

My suggestion is to buy another rifle to shoot. That one is too expensive to actually use. Keep it in the corner or make a hat rack out of it or maybe a lamp. You might leave one round in your lamp just in case. Don't take the lampshade off when you point it. Somebody will die laughing and you'll still have your bullet.

 

[fatelk]

From the photos I'm not convinced that those are reloads. I've reloaded a lot of rounds, and quite a few .303 British, and that brass has the look of unfired to me.

U.S. brass in particular in .303 caliber typically has a slightly undersized base, and military chambers are oversized. When fired there is a bit of a bulge just above the case head that is not normally removed when resized. I can't see any sign of a bulge in your photo. If there is a bulge, that is a dead give-away to reloads.

I was suspicious when I saw the FMJ bullet, as it appeared to have a slightly different shape than typical .303 FMJ, but then I looked at these factory Remington 174gr FMJ rounds and they look identical to what you have:
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/primary/781/781534.jpg

The dents don't bother me. They don't look like lube dents to me, and I've seen a lot of lube dents. They look more like handling dents, or likely someone cycled them through a rifle to test for function without firing. Even the one round that doesn't match could have been from someone opening the box, losing a round, and just replacing it with another round.

Two questions: 1) Was the box they came in the same as the one in the Midwayusa photo above, Remington 174gr FMJ? If so, they look like factory rounds to me.
2) Is the bullet in the one mismatching round exactly the same as the others? It's unlikely that a Frontier bullet would have the exact same shape as a Remington bullet.

I don't blame you for not wanting to shoot someone else's reloads, especially at that price (or any price). If there's any doubt in your mind, definitely take them back to where you bought them and see what they say, but from your photos they look factory to me.

Mixed in with them, however, was a few (dozen+) .44 Magnum rounds with Keith-type lead bullets. He pulled the bullets to salvage the cases...and found them to be COMPLETELY FULL, RIGHT TO THE BASE OF THE BULLET!

Off topic to .303 ammo, but it's quite normal for magnum loads to be full to the bullet base, especially with something like H110 or 2400. I totally agree about not firing unknown reloads, though. I've made enough dumb mistakes on my own when reloading. You just never know what someone else did.

Another question, out of curiosity: is $50 a typical price in your part of the world? I know civilian ammunition is often expensive "on the other side of the pond", but that seems pretty high. Is .303 Brit hard to find as a caliber?

 

[HOOfan_1]

The dents don't bother me. They don't look like lube dents to me, and I've seen a lot of lube dents.

The one he is holding right up to the camera looks like a text book example of a lube dent.

 

[Trent]

Exactly, a lube dent on the shoulder. That's a sure sign of a reload, but worse, of a re-loader who isn't well trained in what he's doing.

 

[fatelk]

Yes, it could be a lube dent, but it could also be from cycling through an action or something. I'm just saying that what I see in the photo looks like unfired brass to me. I've handled and reloaded a lot of brass in my time, but I have been wrong before (more than once). Any amount of bulge on the case body down near the base is a much more tell-tale sign of fired brass.

Added: when buying new ammo, it's reasonable to expect it to look shiny and new. At the very least, even if not reloads, I suspect that your ammo was handled roughly or cycled through a rifle without firing to check functionality. While that alone shouldn't make it unsafe, it's still unsightly and suspect. Any reputable dealer should be able to take it back and trade you for some that hasn't been messed with. If the seller won't make it right, check the rounds a little closer, maybe a couple more photos, and we should be able to tell you for sure.

If all else fails you could always pull one of the bullets out. If the brass is nice and shiny inside, it's not a reload.

 

[Wildcat_Charlie]

when buying new ammo, it's reasonable to expect it to look shiny and new

I can't say as I agree there. If ammo has been left on a shelf for long enough the brass can corrode easy in the box. I've seen that happen lots of times with ammo that isn't all that hard to find. Back when we used to buy ammo at the local general store I saw it pretty often even on .22 ammo. I have seen plenty of dents in cartridges that were new in the box. We used to have to sort through ammo to make sure we weren't feeding any really messed up stuff into our firearms. I still do it to an extent and I know people that are still as deliberate about it as we were back in the 1960's.

So the dents wouldn't bother me and neither would the corrosion. But having a different head stamp sure would. That ammo is reloaded and you never know what you get with someone's reloads. Generally if they are reloading it to sell it isn't done well. The only exception I know to this rule is Black Hills ammo. They re-manufacture ammo (they use once fired cases) and the results are incredibly good. In fact they can match up with some of the best quality handloads and if you happen to find ammo they make that works well in your firearm then you're in like Flynn. My Savage 12 LRPV loves Black Hills ammo (the reloaded stuff in the blue boxes) and will shoot it very, very well. I got lucky with it but a lot of people do or so I hear. They make great ammo. But the person who reloaded the stuff the OP bought should have to fire it in a Ross .303 rifle that's been riding around stuck in an elephant's ear since the Boer War.