Swords - What are Good ones?

[Kestrel]

I was watching a movie last night, that had a lot of sword-play. I started wondering, if you really were in a battle and used a sword, is there a sword made today that would be strong enough not to break?

These guys were whacking the heck out of each other. It seemed to me, in real life, that most swords would break under that kind of treatment. They were cutting heads off, chopping repeatedly against shealds, against other swords, against other steel items, etc.

Not considering some kind of sword games, such as fencing, etc., are there any swords available that could dish out that kind of mayhem? (I'm not talking about something like a $2000 one-of-a-kind sword - I'm talking about something more reasonably priced.)

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Soap]

Atrims are probably the best for a functional Euro style. See http://www.swordforum.com for more details or http://www.allsaintsblades.com

For Japanese stuff the Bugei swords are great for the money. Last Legend's katanas are also up and coming.

 

[MrAcheson]

Some brittle swords with poor heat treatments would break. Others would simply bend because they're too soft. Still others will notch or have edge issues. If you abuse any sword it will suffer for it.

Nice places to get swords these days are allsaintsblades (who sell Angus Trim stuff) and Albion Armorers (who sell their own and remanufactured Deltin stuff) and Arms and Armor. Albion is at www.albionarmorers.com and Arms and Armor is at www.armor.com .

I'm probably going to be buying an Atrim 1518 in the near future. They're pretty, light, and quick. A wonderful combination.

 

[pwrtool45]

The cliff's notes answer:

It depends on which movie you saw. Most swords were designed to block (or deflect) with either the flat (european) or spine (japanese). Edge-on-edge blocking was universally frowned on. It destroyed the edge. It wasn't common practice. Given proper parrying technique, most (good) swords could last a lifetime (and then some).

Most shields were just wood. Unbanded shields were probably the most common, as a solid hit to the edge could cause let the blade bite deep enough to hang, giving the defender an advantage for the riposte. Hacking away on a shield is no worse than hacking away on a tree. It'll dull the edge, but it won't damage it to any significant degree. Metal shields were mostly for ceremonial armor.

By the time metal armor became commonplace, the sword was replaced with other mass weapons such as hammers and axes. Some swords were redesigned to defeat metal armors (such as the French taper thrusting sword, desiged for use against mail), but swords on the whole mostly went the way of the dodo (at least with regard to their military utility, which was even initially much more limited (in comparison to the spear and bow, anyway) than many think). As a result, there wasn't a whole lot in the way of plate armor clad knights dueling with swords. By and large, a sword will not age gracefully if made to routinely defeat metal armor.

The sword remained a popular dueling weapon until (and for some time after, I guess) the advent of the pistol. By this time they'd evolved into the fencing weapons we know today (rapier, epee, etc.). The sword retained this niche mostly because duelists and brigands didn't wear metal armor.

This applies to modern swords as well. Others have given decent to good quality manufacturers. Avoid stainless swords like the plague. Plain carbon steels can be ok if treated properly. Pay as much attention to the manufacturer as to the chemical composition of the steel. Spring steels are generally considered the "best" for modern sword blades. (This all applies to european swords. Acceptable steels for Japanese pattern blades are a crusade and jihad all rolled into one. I've no interest in starting a flame war on the topic.)

 

[Jim March]

Affordable swords that work great can be made out of 5160 steel - also known as "automotive spring steel" (leaf or coil).

Some disparage such stuff as "piece of Chevy" but it works . Some such as ATrim or others use brand new 5160 straight from a foundry, others such as Himalayan Imports (http://www.himalayan-imports.com/) and Kris Cutlery http://www.kriscutlery.com/ use recycled auto springs (HI swears by Mercedes truck springs, or Volvo when they can't score Benz).

5160 can't take a nice pretty cosmetic "temper line" (visible border between the harder edge and softer spine) which is a traditional visual element of Japanese swords.

 

[Devonai]

Not exactly on topic, but interesting: I have a four pound katana first offered by Atlanta Cutlery in 1996. It has a full tang and rosewood grips. I went a little crazy in 1997 and started doing 800 repetitions of six different strikes ever day (overhand 90 degrees, overhand 45 right and left, lateral right and left, and right hand only overhead). My forearms looked like stacked rope, but I eventually developed a cartilage bone spur on my right wrist. The cartilage spur impinged on the tendon and prevented proper movement. I was disappointed, but the cause was obvious. For the next four years I stuck to a one pound bokken, and the spur was reabsorbed.

My buddy and I used to spar every night with bokkens. Eventually we were going full speed, full strength against each other. I found it interesting that if a bokken survived the first fight, it would last for months. Otherwise it would be destroyed within minutes. Some bokkens that seemed to have good grains would just disintegrate upon impact. Good thing they were only $8 each.

 

[J Jones]

The sword remained a popular dueling weapon until (and for some time after, I guess) the advent of the pistol. By this time they'd evolved into the fencing weapons we know today (rapier, epee, etc.). The sword retained this niche mostly because duelists and brigands didn't wear metal armor.

Swords were the primary cavalry weapon until the Civil War and then some. They are effective against unarmored troops such as infantrymen.

 

[JShirley]

Well...

Can you show some documentation for this? I mean, at 5 feet, maybe, but much further than that, I'll take a shotgun or carbine, or even a sidearm.

 

[J Jones]

What do you think Napoleonic Cavalry used? Or the New Model Army, or any number of armies from th 17th C. to 19th C.?

Firearms were common enough to render armor useless, yet not easy enough to use to be of much use in battle when on horseback. Cavalrymen would carry several pistols, but that doesn't mean they were a primary weapon, as it was well nigh impossible to reload on horseback, and the cavalryman wasn't going to ride back to his lines rather than maintain the field after discharging a brace of pistols. Evidence for the use of the sword was the use of squares by infantry to keep them beyond striking distance with swords with the evolution of the bayonet (I should note that pikemen always formed squares to fend off cavalry and before bayos were deployed around musketeers.). This lead to a re-emergence of the lancer in order to extend a cavalryman's striking distance. The high point was the Napoleonic era.

The Civil War was the end of the sword for cavalry, as revolvers and carbines were sufficiently useful to be used as primary weapons. This doesn't mean this was an immediate realization by all the world's armies and the Euros had to re-discover many lessons learned during our Civil war. Hell, Britain developed a cavalry sword (1907 pattern?) at the dawn of the 20th C.

1908 Pattern is the correct designation.

 

[Triad]

The Europeans weren't the only ones developing new swords in the 20th century. Ever heard of the M1913 Cavalry Sword designed by Lt. George S. Patton, Jr.?

 

[J Jones]

Ever heard of the M1913 Cavalry Sword designed by Lt. George S. Patton, Jr.?

Guess which European country's sword it most closely resembles?



Hint: We are divided by a common language.

 

[pwrtool45]

J. Jones

Yes. I neglected the calvary saber. You'll also notice that the saber is one of the three FIE (olympic fencing) weapons-- the other two being foil and epee. Those three are (more or less) the end of the sword's evolution as a mainstream civilian weapon and military implement. The calvary saber hung on for longer than other military swords.

I was trying to be brief. To approach an acceptable level of detailed accuracy would fill the posting buffer (and then some). I don't think that was what the OP was wanting.

 

[JShirley]

The Civil War was the end of the sword for cavalry

This was my thought, too, but I see what you meant, now.