SxS Question

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viking499

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I have an itch for a side by side 12 guage shotgun. I don't want anything fancy. One to do some bird, rabbit, or other hunting. Maybe even use it for turkey hunting. Something like a 311 or a little better. But also want one that has choke tubes.

How hard is it to get a SxS choked? Is it worth it?

Is there a decent shotgun out there that has choke tubes already?

Held the Remingtons and not really impressed with them. Think the CZ's are overpriced. What's out there for me?
 
Choking of older doubles has come up before, and some relatively inexpensive shops were mentioned.

Doable for a lot less than buying a new gun if you already have one. One place was as little as $35/barrel if I remember correctly.
 
Doubles are harder to make then single barrel pumps, semi etc. because not for the materials, as that's all subjective anyway, but in regulating the barrels to shot to the same point making it more labour intensive...

There is massive differences in price and the difference between a $500 and an $800 gun is noticeable in fit and finish, or features...

As to interchangeable chokes, the answer is yes, readily available, direct from the maker, installed and well worth the extra cost...this way for field shooting you can use F/M or F/IM, especially for passing ducks and geese over decoys while pheasant could be IC/M or M/IM and all shot from the same gun...greatest invention for shotguns since the choke was first invented...

I'd strongly suggest to forget about the Spartan and Baikals and pick up a slightly better grade of gun, you'll be far happier and it will probably have the features you want BUT buy it used as the price is usually less then half MSRP and you can get a much better looking gun for the same amount...

Browning had a model called the BSS that was excellent but check the auction sites, GunBroker, EBay etc. to get an idea as to prices before you go shopping...most, if not all, gun stores will have a used dept and I found a lovely Merkel SxS 28 bore 27" w/chokes at Cabala's that had some easily fixed scratches on the butt for a fifth the price ($600) for one of my daughters...

A royal Grade Holland and Holland is around $150,000 new but you'll see twenty year old ones selling for $20,000...
 
but you'll see twenty year old ones selling for $20,000...

What one also has to consider is that a Holland and Holland, Purdey, etc. is made to fit the buyer.

It's simply not worth as much to anyone else. I doubt that a new custom-fitted stock from one of these vendors is cheap.:)

Back to the point...

Baikal/Spartan SxS don't fit me AT ALL. Stoegers actually do.

Stoegers are pretty rough, but also pretty reliable.

None of these guns really feel all that great, though. Old American guns (16 and smaller gauges especially) feel much better to me.

Possibly the best deal in a nice SxS is a Basque gun like one of these:
http://doubleshotguns.com/ugartechea.htm
 
I have an itch for a side by side 12 guage shotgun. I don't want anything fancy. One to do some bird, rabbit, or other hunting. Maybe even use it for turkey hunting.

Most hunters do not need the snob appeal of a $3000+ shotgun for field use. They are nice for show and tell at the club, but a tough, reliable shotgun is what gets the job done for most of us.

If we stay focused on what the OP requested, there is no need to gravitate to discussing high end shotguns that are priced out of the reach of most hunters.

You'll be hard pressed to do better than a Stoeger SxS for the money, and they are backed by the Beretta/Benelli consortium.


NCsmitty
 
NC-

Snob appeal?

That's not it. $1345 isn't a snob's SxS by any means, either.

The problem with cheap SxS guns is that they don't handle like a SxS, so they're really not worth $500 or $600 either. It's not like they're free. A Wingmaster or something feels better.

That said, a Stoeger can handle okay, but ONLY if you go with 20 Gauge. Don't get a 12 if you want something that feels like a SxS.

I knew someone with a Stoeger 20, and it served him well in the field. He said he did have to do some work on it before he really used it, though. They are pretty rough inside, and I'm not just complaining about aesthetics.

One must remember that the pump and semiauto shotguns exist in part because the SxS was really expensive to make. Don't buy a SxS for the price of an 870 Express and expect that SxS even to be as nice as the Express.

Baikals used to have problems with regulation (barrels shot to totally different POI on some guns, or far off-center in one direction or another). I think the Spartans are improved.

However, if your SxS doesn't shoot straight, no matter how cheap it was, it will sit in the closet -- making it a waste of money.

Why is it that, when someone asked about a good pump, or a nice handgun, or a good hunting rifle for $100 new, people would laugh, but when someone asks about a good double for $300, anyone who responds with reservations is called a "snob"? That's silly. A buyer should get good information, not some BS twisted by someone's perception of "snobbery." A $300 SxS is about like a $100 handgun. Definitely don't expect too much.
 
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Snob appeal of a $3,000 SxS?!?!...For something of quality in a SxS, 3000 is CHEAP. When you start getting above $10,000, then you're getting into bling and fancy wood. Most very good Spanish guns in the $3,000 range are very well-made basic field guns - nicely balanced and well-finished....not some unregulated, clunky piece of junk.........

Certain guns cost more to make - SxS's cost the most to do correctly, and subsequently of the 5 basic types, they cost the most.

added:....Seekher: here's a nice little Purdey:http://www.gunsinternational.com/Ja...und-action-410-ever-made.cfm?gun_id=100073936

only costs more than twice my house!......lol
 
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I know you said.....

..........you don't like the feel of the Remington Spartans, but if the CZ's are too expensive, that pretty much leaves you with them. But I honestly know nothing about Stoegers. Maybe there is something for you there. I have a Spartan and love it. Sturdy, changeable chokes and not priced bad. I hope you find what you're looking for.
 
My Spartan was a little short in LOP, so I added a recoil pad which fixed it and also lowered drop and come just enough that it fits better now. Individual fit, though, is an individual thing. Try the Spartans and the Stoegers and see which fits you better, which feels better to you.
 
Mossberg is importing some now, too.

I've never heard anything bad about them, but the only ones I've actually ever seen were at shows......

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=15&section=products

77084.jpg


They're selling for $800 on GunBroker...
 
ArmedBear -- What one also has to consider is that a Holland and Holland, Purdey, etc. is made to fit the buyer.

It's simply not worth as much to anyone else. I doubt that a new custom-fitted stock from one of these vendors is cheap.

Back to the point...

True to a point and are impossible to sell if they came with really odd cast on/off, or bent stocks for eye dominance unless you have the same problems then you got yourself a steal/deal of a lifetime...The majority of the Bespoke market whether English, Spanish, German, Italian or Belgium, is standard dimensions with a custom LOP (length of pull) and maybe slight variances to drop of heel or comb but once you pick one up and shoulder it you'll know if that gun will fit you...

If I can get a non bespoke Italian, Spanish or even a Turkish gun for a couple hundred more then a Stoeger etc., a gun with better feel between the hands, much better bluing and stock wood, cleaner lines then why shouldn't I...

NCsmitty -- If we stay focused on what the OP requested, there is no need to gravitate to discussing high end shotguns that are priced out of the reach of most hunters.

You'll be hard pressed to do better than a Stoeger SxS for the money, and they are backed by the Beretta/Benelli consortium.

They're maybe backed but not made to Beretta or Benelli fit and finish...

The problem is that guns like the Beretta, Benelli, etc. are just production guns just like the Remington, Baikal etc...They might have a little better finish, maybe a touch of engraving but they're only $1,000+ guns the same as the Mossberg, or the L.C. Smith made for Marlin, a Ugartechea or a Cesar Guerini without engraving...

I just saw a Ithaca/SKB (means Japanese made) in a used gun column for $750 and there wasn't a more plain Jayne gun out there and sold brand new for that amount 20 odd years ago...The point of the H&H is to show that used is the way to buy better quality champagne guns on your beer budget...

The problem with double and more so a SxS is that if they don't fit, feel right on the shoulder to your eye then no matter how much or little they cost they aren't worth crap to you because you'll never hit anything and unfortunately the cheaper the gun the worse the fit...It's not fancy engraving or wood that you're paying for but balance, lines, feel and properly regulated barrels and I'm not referring to bespoke guns, just run on the mill, but more expensive run of the mill guns...

Check Shotgun Sports, Shooting Sportsman, Grey's Journal, Sporting Classics magazines for some of the better used houses (dealers) out there and they all have guns that they have taken in trade that they'll part with for little money but won't advertise in the journals because they're looking to draw a richer clientele!

Too bad that no one in the USA makes doubles anymore, Like Parker, L.C. Smith, Winchester, Ithaca, A. H. Fox -- not the replicas like Tony Galazan makes or the companies have imported from Italy or Spain under their labels but competitive, inexpensive guns of reasonable good looks and fair balance...

What gets me is that you'll (collectively speaking) spend $800 for a deer rifle and $500 for a scope to go 10 days, two weeks of the year hunting but won't spend half that for a shotgun that you can take between waterfowl and upland birds 30, 40+ days worth and where fit is drastically important to make the shot...
 
The problem with double and more so a SxS is that if they don't fit, feel right on the shoulder to your eye then no matter how much or little they cost they aren't worth crap to you because you'll never hit anything

+1.

My son was 13 when he bought his Baikal with his own money. He couldn't afford a Red Label and outta all the SXSs he played with at the gun shop, in his price range, the Baikal fit him the best. The Stoegers in 12 ga. were just to bulky for his hands at that time and the safeties on most we tried were impossible for him to work(several were impossible for me to work also). He started shooting sporting clays with it a year later. Him and the gun got trashed everytime we went, mostly by those we began callin' the Beretta boys. But he kept at it. One day a fairly loud and obnoxious regular there said on the way out to shoot,"that ain't one of them cheap Russian guns is it kid? They shouldn't even allow them cheap commie pieces of s#*t on the range!". He kept at it till about the 6th or seventh station when all of a sudden he was behind in score to my son. Of course, it was because he had the wrong choke tubes in. After a coupla more stations when he was farther behind, it was because his jacket was too bulky and he couldn't shoulder his gun right. My son just kept breakin' birds with his cheap POS and in the end beat the loud mouth Know-it-all by four birds(beat his dad that night by more than that).

Maybe my son's gun is an exception, maybe he's an exception, dunno. But to those that claim you'll never be able to hit anything with a Baikal/Spartan cause they're too cheap to be shootable, hope you can put your money where your mouth is..........:neener:
 
The problem is that guns like the Beretta, Benelli, etc. are just production guns just like the Remington, Baikal etc...They might have a little better finish, maybe a touch of engraving but they're only $1,000+ guns the same as the Mossberg, or the L.C. Smith made for Marlin, a Ugartechea or a Cesar Guerini without engraving...

I understand what you're saying. None of them are hand-made British guns.

However, it's inaccurate to compare poorly-made production guns with bad parts (e.g. Mossberg O/U), the modern 391 to the obsolete 11-87, a 680 series or a Guerini to the new "LC Smith" (gack) guns.

There are some production guns that are well-made and handle well, and some that are poorly made and/or handle like a 4' section of 2x4.

They're not all the same, just because some Brit didn't machine them by hand.

And it's got nothing whatsoever to do with engraving. I don't judge any shotgun until I've held it with my eyes closed.

A Silver Hawk is not a Purdey, but it's not a Baikal either. Not even close.

A Porsche is not equivalent to a Chevy Aveo, simply because both are production cars. That's what it sounds like you're saying. You know to much to mean that, but that's what it would sound like to someone who wants to believe there's no difference between a Baikal and a Beretta.

buck- Loud, obnoxious jerks are just that, and have nothing to do with the objective quality of the guns they're shooting. We all like to laugh at the loudmoth with a Perazzi when we beat them with an H&R.:) The Perazzi is still the nicer gun. The Remington Baikals are a good deal better than Baikals used to be (they seem to be regulated now).
 
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