tactical features in the field?

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Wapato

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I don't hunt or shoot trap currently, but I might like to in the future.

Currently I'm trying to decide on what sort of home security shotgun to get. Ideally, if I started going trap shooting or hunting, I'd like to use the same shotgun. Now, the price of a hunting shotgun isn't so high compared to the costs of ammo, range fees, hunting licenses, and other hunting gear, so that isn't a huge factor. Rather it's that I keep hearing that using your home defense shotgun in those other roles can make you a whole lot better with it.

What I'm wondering is if various features seen on home security shotguns are near fatal liabilities in those roles.

I'm thinking of chiefly of pistol grips and not being able to use a bead sight. But feel free to mention other things that could be a real problem, like the thing only weighing seven pounds.

Does it depend on the type of hunting? For example it would seem like hunting hogs in the brush would have very different demands compared to fast flying birds. Also in my state you can have up to eight shells loaded for some things, any problems with having that capacity in other settings?
 
I tried a buddies pistol grip 870 when we were shooting trap, I couldn't hit anything with it at all. But you could always keep the old stock and switch it out when you go hunting.
 
Some gun clubs won't allow shotguns with barrels shorter than some given measurement, like 21". That might be a problem.

Short barrels are harder to keep swinging smoothly on moving targets than longer barrels, so hitting clay targets or wingshooting with them might be more difficult. Some people manage it anyway though.

Most security shotguns have open chokes, CYL or ImpCyl. On clay or other targets at longer range (trap), that might mean patterns too thin to break or fell targets. In the field, on close flushing game like quail or rabbits, or on carefully chosen within-range shots on dove, pheasant etc., a 12 gauge open choked shotgun is nigh onto murderous.

A security shotgun makes a good brush country deer gun with buckshot or slugs, in the hands of a capable shooter. Some of the newer buckshot loads with FliteControl wads can add tens of yards to the effective range of buckshot in an open-choked hunting shotgun - of course, you should always pattern your own gun to know for sure.

Pistol grips? Shotguns and conventional shotgun stocks evolved over hundreds of years of use to easily and quickly hit fleeting targets. Why waste all that evolution?
 
A standard stocked, short barrelled pump shotgun that fits you is a marvelous close range defensive weapon AS IS. No bling, no bellsnwhistles.

Using a long barreled pump that fits you for clays and hunting, then switching to a short barrel for HD means practice with one is practice with the other.

That's why the combo packages from Mossberg and Remington are so popular.....
 
I have a mag extension on my 1100 when I go shoot trap. I do it because that shotgun is my do everything gun and that include HD with a shorter barrel.
 
I have a 12 gauge mossberg 500 that came with a 18.5" open choked barrel and a 26" ribbed barrel.
The great thing about shotguns is that they can be very simple when used at there "prime" distances (under 50 yards).

It's been great for everything from home made idpa style courses (close range buckshot and slugs out to 50 yards on a man sized target), pheasant hunting and informal clay shooting.

I just recently bought a 24" rifled barrel with open sights that I can shoot 3 inch groups from 25 yards to 100 yards with rifled slugs. I tried a bunch of different sabot rounds and the "cheap" slugs I use with my 18.5" barrel patterned just as nicely, if not better.
I also bought a cantilever rifled barrel, but didn't find it any faster or easier to get on target.

The only down side to using a 12 gauge with slugs is after 10 - 15 my shoulder is fairly sore, even with a limbsaver pad. Granted, I do have some issues with recoil due to muscle and joint problems I patterned a bunch the other day, about 45 or 50 with some being 3" slugs at 7/8 or one ounce, and I felt like I had been in a car accident and hung over the next day from the stress to my body.
 
There isn't much shared utility between sporting shotguns and "tactical" shotguns.

A relatively short shotgun barrel can be handier in heavier brush for hunting deer.

A telescoping stock is easily shortened to compensate for heavy winter clothing.

There's not much else.

Also in my state you can have up to eight shells loaded for some things, any problems with having that capacity in other settings?
Click to expand...

Yeah. It's generally unlawful. Capacity limits vary by state and are generally well under 8. The capacity limit for hunting migratory game birds is 3 under federal law, IIRC.
 
I forgot to mention that when I got my Mossberg 500 (traded for it) the guy had a shell carrier on the side of the action installed. I just left it on because it doesn't really get in the way. It works decently for bird hunting where I prefer to only load two shells in the gun at a time.
 
I think the vertical pistol grip is a liability for wingshooting.

The vertical pistol grip causes the elbow of your trigger-arm to be lower than it should be for wingshooting.

Its simple physics.
You get more side-to-side leverage on the gun if your trigger-arm elbow is sticking out.
More leverage gives smoother tracking of the bird.

I do get a certain delight though in viewing the apoplectic fudd-reaction when somebody shows up at the trap field with an AK-ified SAIGA with pointy flash hider. The one I saw was yelling "TANGO!" instead of "pull."

:neener:
 
The SAIGA guy was a phony Seal Team 6 wannabe.

If he even knew what the the phonetic alphabet was, he would have been yelling Papa Uniform Lima Lima!

rc
 
If you want one for HD and field use, consider a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870. I think Mossberg, and maybe even Remington, have or had a package that had the HD shotgun along with a long ribbed hunting barrel with chokes.

Or you can get the HD shotgun and get whatever barrels you want online. I'd get the HD shotgun with the pistol grip only just because you can add a stock (I got a factory one for $20) but you can't add a grip. And if you ever decide to AOW it for some reason, you'll need this technicality. As for using the pistol grip... As soon as I got it home I put on the stock. With the Mossberg, you want a traditional one because of where the safety is, with a Remington, you can use a pistol grip stock or a traditional one as it has a crossbolt safety by the trigger.

The breacher my 500 has is useless, but the barrel is thicker and shorter, allowing for slightly wider patterns. It works well for me. A quick barrel swap and I have a slug gun or a trap gun. So the breacher turned out to be a jack of all trades, a pretty good deal, and if I ever need to open a door, well, I got the tool!

To the guy with the sidesaddle, yeah, just leave it on. They don't weigh much, they are handy, and you'd need the original parts to replace the two screws --all saying it looks good underneath.
 
W.E.G. said:
I think the vertical pistol grip is a liability for wingshooting.

The vertical pistol grip causes the elbow of your trigger-arm to be lower than it should be for wingshooting.

Its simple physics.
You get more side-to-side leverage on the gun if your trigger-arm elbow is sticking out.
More leverage gives smoother tracking of the bird.

I do get a certain delight though in viewing the apoplectic fudd-reaction when somebody shows up at the trap field with an AK-ified SAIGA with pointy flash hider. The one I saw was yelling "TANGO!" instead of "pull."

:neener:
Click to expand...
Tango? Really? Wow... I mean shoot with what you want, playing around is fun, but yelling that to pull targets is ridiculous. "Pull" is pretty common, it is also one syllable, what's wrong with that?

"Tango" is more common in first person shooter video games, especially "Call of Duty" series, where they even use it during a 1960's scenario --along with reflex sights. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good video game, even at my age, but I know where to draw the line.

I would have died right there laughing.
 
I have a high level of confidence any of my field guns will work fine for actual "home defense", but I have zero confidence how a mall ninja special would work in the field or on the clays range.
 
So people think features like a pistol grip and sights beyond a bead are just getting in the way for most things. Possible badly. Although to be clear I meant pistol grip WITH full stock. Obviously a stockless shotgun is going to have trouble at range, and I'd be concerned about its legality here.

I also get the feeling if I ever did make it to a skeet/trap range I'm going to catch flack from the greybeards unless I've got a gun designed before the 80s.

kozak6 said:
Yeah. It's generally unlawful. Capacity limits vary by state and are generally well under 8. The capacity limit for hunting migratory game birds is 3 under federal law, IIRC.
Click to expand...

My state is a bit odd with that in that the legal capacity varies between different critters and can be 3 or 8. My impression is that most people just get a magazine plug to go down in capacity to whatever they're hunting at the moment, since many guns come with a capacity for at least 5.

Hunh, since I opened the page to confirm those numbers, it looks like you basically can't hunt with buckshot. Birdshot for birds.
Pumpkin ball, sabot, or slug for deer.

You'd want more than bead sights to go after deer with slugs wouldn't you?
 
An over under with a 26 inch barrel will do just fine as a home defense shotgun, and will be wonderful as a trap, skeet, and wingshooting shotgun. It's only 5 inches longer than the most "tactical" short barreled shotguns, because you don't have the 3 inch receiver. You could get a 20ga instead of a 12ga and it will be light, and short, and get around any corners that an 18 inch 12ga will. You can also practice all day long with a 20ga, because of the light kick. Unless your home has 40 yards spaces in it, you will be pretty safe putting 20ga 00 buckshot into the gun with some modified or full chokes screwed in. Throw a fiber optic sight on the front, and you'll be just fine.

That was a pretty rambling post, but I guess my answer to your question of the optimal home defense/sporting combo shotgun is:
A double barrel, preferably side by side, 20ga, with a 26" barrel and screw in chokes
and a fiber optic bead on the front.
Because it's reliable, simple, safe, versatile, light, maneuverable, and cheap. Good qualities for either a home defense gun or sporting gun
 
Wapato, if the deer is within 15 yards, which they usually are in my state, a bead sight will do just fine, even with rifled slugs in a smooth bore. Just as long as you flatten out the rib when you pull it up.
 
I killed a lot of deer with just a bead sight. The most accurate smoothbore shotgun with slugs I EVER saw was an old 870 with a modified choke barrel. 4" groups at 150 yards with a bead sight. Now I couldn't shoot it that tight, best I could get was about 3" at 100 yards, but the guy that owned it could.
 
You'd want more than bead sights to go after deer with slugs wouldn't you?

I prefer sights on a defensive shotgun as well on a deer gun, given the choice. I can shoot bead sights reasonably well but I like sights anyway, where slugs are concerned.

It's so easy to swap barrels on modern major-manufacturer pump shotguns that there's no reason not to have a barrel basically suited to the job the gun is doing at the time. A combo of a 26-28" vent rib barrel threaded for choke tubes and an 18-20" rifle sighted smoothbore barrel offers an incredibly versatile combination for defense, wingshooting, small game hunting, large game hunting and clay games.
 
I hunt doves quite successfully with a coach gun, 20", very light and "whippy" handling, so it takes getting used to and concentration on swing and follow through, but the pay back over tanks or what not when the birds are flying in low and quick from all directions is that it is light speed fast to the shoulder and on target. I've pulled off some shots like that which I don't know if my auto chucker would have allowed as it's a heavier gun, longer, more weight forward.

Pistol grips are for pistols. Nuff said.

Extra capacity mags, for the birds I mostly hunt, are illegal unless plugged.

Bead and vent rib, please. NO SIGHTS and for DAMNED sure no optics!

No rails needed.

I don't own a tacticool shotgun. I'm a hunter. Closest thing I have is my little 20 gauge coach gun. I do like that thing for dove hunting, though. :D

Above all, a hunting or clays gun needs to FIT PROPERLY. Not many tacticool guns consider proper shotgun fit and cheek weld in the stocks.
 
BTW, I have an old SxS Sarasqueta I bought in 1971, 12 gauge 3". I hunted waterfowl and dove with it for 10 years until steel shot became mandatory. I don't shoot it much anymore, but it makes a pretty good rifle if you can stand the recoil. It's kinda light. But, the barrels are VERY well regulated and at 50 yards, I can put two foster slugs about an inch apart with it and that's with a bead, only. I don't like shooting slugs in that thing, much, though, cause I don't have an interchangeable shoulder. :eek:
 
I just picked up a Mossberg 500. It is GTG as is for HD. Traditional stock with no extras; no sling, no shell caddies or saddles, nothing.

I dont like pistol grip shotties, besides the mossberg's safety is on top. With a high cheek weld the pistol grip is not comfy.

The sling might get hung up on stuff.

the saddles really arent needed with the extended mag. Stats show most gun fights dont last that long. If i think i will need more than 7 rounds, i'll grab one of my full size 9mm pistols or my AR. It does have the factory tube extension.

Mossberg sells shotguns with 2 barrels; 28" ribbed and 18.5" HD. I know the 930 has a combo and i think the 830 does to.
 
Wapato, beads and slugs will work out to 50 yards for most folks, but sights usually are better.

A short barrelled, unmodified pump gun of US make is an excellent defensive tool, sans bells,whistles,fuzzy dice and curb feelers. Swap to a longer barrel for hunting and clays.

As for stocks with separate PGs, there's 200 years of R&D behind the standard stock. It looks like that for a number of reasons. All the reasons have to with making it shoot where you're looking and making it comfortable to shoot.
 
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