tactical features in the field?

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I adapted a 3-point sling designed for AR/MP5/AK's to a leveraction .44 for field carry. It makes carrying the gun easier, and if you have to um, relieveyourself, you have the gun right at your side, muzzle down.
 
As for stocks with separate PGs, there's 200 years of R&D behind the standard stock. It looks like that for a number of reasons. All the reasons have to with making it shoot where you're looking and making it comfortable to shoot.

What you need to do is give up thinking your HD needs are the same as a police SWAT teams needs!
Trust me, they aren't!!

Pistol grips? Shotguns and conventional shotgun stocks evolved over hundreds of years of use to easily and quickly hit fleeting targets. Why waste all that evolution?

Ok. I can see this is a reoccuring theme. And I have to admit that a pistol grip isn't exactly a technological advancement. Anybody could have put one on their weapon since crossbows were state of the art, but they've opted for other stocks instead.

On the other hand, virtually every military rifle uses a pistol grip, and I think most shotguns do as well.

I think police might be a bit more mixed, but certainly a lot of pistol grips there too.

Does anyone have a clear explination for the tradeoffs between the two such that hunters like one style and police/military the other?

And then why would HD needs better match the hunter out of those two?


I'm pretty vexed here. I think it's because until pretty recently I just had what I had for firearms, and only now am looking to buy things, and so I'm looking into details.

In previous forums and when talking to people in real life, I've found everybody thinks they're a badass and they'll win with what they've got. And if a bunch of guys with guns broke into their house they'd whup them all with their black belt kung fu skills, or chop them in half with their sword, or stab them with their spear. The guys from the UK especially, and they might throw in that Americans are wusses because we need guns for defense and pads for football but they can do home defense and rugby bare chested.

As a result my BS meter is entirely out of calibration here.

I've got no idea if I should be considering a coach gun for HD because the stuff marketed for home defense is "tacticool" and sucks, or if that's about as smart as taking their advice and getting myself a Katana for HD because it's the best weapon mankind has ever devised and guns are for wussies and suck anyway.
 
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Buy 2

They are so cheap--a used 500,88, or 870 can often be had for the same money as a new barrel. New ones aren't that pricey, either.
Keep your HD gun in its place, with its buckshot and ready for emergency duty.
Keep it more or less stock, with a white bead or a hi-viz. You don't need a lot of gizmos to centerpunch somebody at 0 to 20 feet.

Trick out your hunting gun to your hearts content--its a sport.
 
Lookit, you can listen to whoever you want to from whatever source you think you're getting the best information from. It's your choice, your decision, if you buy a shotgun you'll be spending your money, it'll be yours to train with, practice with and shoot as you see fit. No one here will be making a penny off of what you do, and I don't really think anyone here really has an emotional investment in what you decide to do.

You ask a question, most folks on THR will offer the best answer they can give. There's occasionally some static, some snark, some oddball different or individual answers that are different from the mainstream. But most folks here will straight up try to help.

And people who are trolls, abusive, deliberately misleading or who offer wrong or downright dangerous advice or answers get called on it pretty quickly by the membership and the staff here. I haven't seen any of that on your thread. I don't know where your "vexedness" is coming from. In Strategies, Tactics and Training, where I'm assigned to moderate, I occasionally have to remind people that "this isn't your little brother's internet." THR isn't some kind of exclusive club, but we work hard to operate at a higher standard than most of the places on the web, especially the gun boards. Most people here know whereof they speak. We're not real heavy on keyboard commandos, even though this is an open board and anyone can join.

As a result my BS meter is entirely out of calibration here.

Well - recalibrate it then.

Simple fact is that the vast majority of shotguns out there have conventional shotgun type stocks. That includes most LE and military shotguns as well. It's definitely true that more LE and military shotguns nowadays have pistol grip shoulder stocks than even just a few years ago. That's because (in my studied opinion) America is not the gun culture nation it once was, and a larger percentage of folks first get their hands on a firearm in the military in recent years. Since the M-16 became the issue service rifle in the USA several decades ago, all of those folks have learned to shoot with a pistol gripped long gun. A certain percentage of ex-GIs go into LE when they get out. And they take their training with them, which includes a certain affinity for pistol grip long guns.

Others may well disagree with my conclusions above. I've never seen any formal studies done on pistol gip versus conventional stock shotguns and who likes what and why. Like a lot of things in human life, people tend to like best what they first learn how to use.

As to all the other barechested katana fantasy crap out there, while I've never shot another human with a shotgun or anything else, in my previous years working as an EMT I have zipped up body bags on people who have been shot, beaten, cut, slashed and stabbed with various things, and have done my best to keep those who weren't ready for a body bag from needing one. And I can tell you from seeing it done that shotguns can and do remove meat and bone in quantity, and shotguns are the only firearm that does that level of damage regularly with a single solid hit.

For defense of myself, my family, and my home, I'll take a shotgun any time for up close problems of limited scope. Shotguns aren't perfect for every situation - no firearm is - and shotguns definitely have their limitations. But I know those limitations after more than 40 years of shooting shotguns. And I know their advantages too. I'm nothing but an old redneck, and I love me some shotgun.

If you'd rather have a katana, go ahead... we have a Non-Firearm Weapons Forum here too. :D
 
+1 Lee...well stated.

On the subject of pistol grips, about the ONLY advantage I see is that one can mitigate, to an extent, recoil with it. For wing shooting, no thanks. A pistol grip is out of place on the clays range or in the field, but a standard stock CAN function for defense. I am not one of those that started on pistol grips, so maybe that's my problem with 'em, don't know, but I don't really even like 'em on a rifle. I've got one, just because it was cheap and it's a range toy...SKS with an aftermarket folder. I have a normal stocked SKS I prefer for a truck gun running around my place.
 
I like Bubba in Ca's idea. Buy one for HD and one for sport. Its what most of us have done. An attempt to take a stab at the evolution of rifle and stock designs would probably require a book. One of the things i remember in an old argument favoring straight stocks as opposed to pistol gripped was the placement of both hands on a single plane with the rear hand as close to the the eye as possible. The closer the two hands and the eyes to being on the same plane the better (think of simulating holding a broom stick like a shotgun) This supposedly allows an instinctive style of shooting wherein one only had to look at the target and see the front sight and barrel in your peripheral vision. Much like an instinctive archer. Its how most people shoot at and hit little clay birds moving much faster than any home invader, I hope :). It also allows you to shoot with both eyes open and allows a full field of vision. Both absolutely necessary in the dim light, close distances and fast action that is typical of most defense scenarios. Good luck in your choice Wapato.
 
I just think a standard stock comes to me more naturally and carries more naturally in the field. It's quicker to the eye and proper fit is ALL IMPORTANT to me regardless. I've seen a lot tacticool folders that didn't offer any sort of cheek weld, for instance.

I like Bubba in Ca's idea. Buy one for HD and one for sport. Its what most of us have done.

Not me. My little 20 gauge coach gun is very handy and I hunt doves with it so I've shimmed the stock, fitted it to me, it points naturally. Where I look, it shoots. I figure if I can whack fast flying doves at 30 yards with it, a human in my bedroom isn't a challenge. Main thing is, I know this gun. It's part of me when I bring it up to my shoulder. Fit is what does that for me and also, being an old Fudd, PG stocks just do NOT feel natural. Maybe they do to others, but not me. That is pure personal opinion, but the importance of FIT is not, it's fact.

So, anyway, I like the fact that I shoot this gun all dove season, am one with it, it's natural to me. When the SHTF and I'm all adrenalized, I know the gun subconsciously. That has to be an advantage iin my mind.

That said, if you shoot a pump in the field, just switch to an 18.5" barrel and the gun remains the same even if the balance is a bit off. Don't need a smooth swing on static targets. If you have an 870 for field use, buy one set up the same for home defense, same shotguns, same deal. I mean, you could even add an extended mag to that home defense 870 without significantly changing its handling, a side saddle, even, just keep the stock the same as the field stock. Yeah, I can see that. I'll keep my coach gun under the bed, though, 'cause I really like it. :D When I take it dove hunting, I just slip the butt cuff off and pull the buckshot out of it.
 
Note that a lot of the Katanas here in the US got here because a previous owner ran across a GI with a Garand, Springfield, Thompson, 1911 or Model 12/97.

Just between Lee and I, there's a century of real world experience with shotguns, a mess of training and a combined round count well up into six figures. Heck, we each may have that many....

I have experience with rifles having that separate PG hanging down and I do like them, but a standard stocked shotgun I know well is a body part, not a tool I hold.

I suggest getting a combo set from Mossberg or Remington, and shooting the heck out of it. Be safe, have fun, and about the time you run 25 or have a satisfying weight in your hunting vest that wasn't there when you left the house, you'll have a better idea of what will work for you.
 
I have a mossberg maverick 88 shotgun that I use for both home defense and for skeet/ bird hunting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEwxQ9HhyC4

It works great in all three worlds. I picked up a longer hunting barrel from a bargain bin really cheap, then I found this muzzleloader barrel for it http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/46347-1.html

So now for the price of a mid-ranged shotgun [I think I paid $350 for everything] I have a HD gun, a hunting gun, and a muzzleloading rifle [too bad they did away with the muzzleloading season here in TX :( ]

As for tactical, if you like using your bead sights, steer clear of high mount pistol grips like the knoxx specops stock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDoLaN8bEM

because you wont be able to use your bead, however you can use an angled stock like this one:
http://www.craftster.org/Comparison...p-Collapsible-Butt-Stock-for-Mossberg-500590/
to allow your face to line up with your sights again.

I had the knoxx specops stock on mine for a bit but I couldnt stand my new sight picture so I went back to stock, haven't had any problems since :)
 
Pistol grip stocks have some advantages when it comes to loading the magazine with the weak hand while the gun is shouldered, or otherwise using your other hand while the gun is kept more or less at the ready.

Also it would help greatly in weapon retention if someone grabbed the front of the gun. Shooting around a corner with the gun shouldered without leaving your elbow area exposed is easier with a PG. I find them somewhat easier to settle into my shoulder "pocket" in a hurry if the gun isn't close to being mounted already.

Lastly, a short length-of-pull PG stock won't put your face and your grip hand too close together like a short conventional stock might.

All that being said, I have no pistol grip stocks on any of my shotguns, IMO they give up a lot of pointability and make the gun bulkier.
 
Wapato said he wanted a shotgun that he would be able to use for clays and hunting, that would also work well for home defense. Is a double barreled 20ga not that gun? It will be the same gun, barrel and all, when it's in the home or in the field, and it can be found for cheaper than a remington or mossberg combo. It will take any bird in the field and any clay at the club. You can get a temporary Hi-Viz rifle sight for it and sight it in for slugs to take deer, and take it off after the season is over. And when you have it loaded by the bed in the home, it will always be ready to fire two reliable shots.
20ga double barrel, 26" barrels, screw-in chokes, fiber optic bead for birds and clays, hi-viz rifle sights for deer season. Perfect. I wish I had one now. I guess I'll have to be happy with my 12ga with 28" barrels for now
 
You ask a question, most folks on THR will offer the best answer they can give. There's occasionally some static, some snark, some oddball different or individual answers that are different from the mainstream. But most folks here will straight up try to help.

Alright, so the vibe I'm getting is that the way things work here is that people give the best advice they can, and people either take it or not, but you aren't going to argue with each other. Or say something is a bad idea, you just accept their opinions for what they are and leave it at that.

Which leaves a wide range of opinions out there, but I can see how it keeps things high and respectful.

So. Well, I guess thanks for the advice in this thread everybody.

And I can tell you from seeing it done that shotguns can and do remove meat and bone in quantity, and shotguns are the only firearm that does that level of damage regularly with a single solid hit.

That's why I'm leaning toward getting one, despite my almost complete lack of experience with them and actually having some experience with rifles and handguns. I was looking into what sort of cartridge I should get a new HD handgun in, and kept running into stuff on how this round or that round failed to stop the bad guy and bad things happened. I started to think a handgun is good for being where you need it fast, but if you have a little time and are already in your bedroom a shotgun might be a whole lot better, and might not shoot up the neighbors the way my AR15 might.

Note that a lot of the Katanas here in the US got here because a previous owner ran across a GI with a Garand, Springfield, Thompson, 1911 or Model 12/97.

That's awesome, I'm so borrowing that. :D
 
I take my saiga12 to the clay range all the time, as well as my rem1100. I don't do any better with one than the other. I can usually bust 23/25 with either. Pistol grip vs sporter stock....18.25" barrel vs 26"....bead sight vs rifle sights...all makes no difference to me.

And yeah, I hunt with my AKs, the saiga12 and saiga 762x39. Sure they're not your traditional hunting tools, but I enjoy hunting and those are the weapons I have at my disposal. As long as you can kill legally and ethically I don't see how is matters if your hunting rifle is tacticool or not.

I catch a lot of flak from the older guys I hunt with, from them and their bolt rifles, saying I can't hunt with those commie guns. Its all in good fun tho. They respect that im capable with the tools I have at my disposal. That's good enough for me

Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk
 
Wapato,

Back in the day, the common expression was "Different strokes for different folks." People are individuals, and there are very few 'one size fits all' solutions that will work for everyone. Of late I've noticed even the clothing manufacturers have begun to catch on, not long ago I saw a label that said "One size fits most." Truth in advertising, at last! :D

It would be presumptuous to say that any given solution might - or might not be - the best for some individual any of us have never seen before. "Best" is such a relative term anyway. Different people have different needs and abilities, and it is up to each person to determine what is best for them in the situation they have to deal with.

A frequent question here at THR is "What gun is best for home defense?" My stock answer is, use the gun you are most confident at using. And if you think something else is better, take time to get confident with whatever gun you want to start using before you change over. I have this quaint notion that it is the SHOOTER who is the critical element in the formula, not the hardware. Fancy that.

There are no magic bullets, no matter what numbers their name contains. A miss is a miss, a peripheral hit is a peripheral hit. And people will react different ways to being shot at, or hit. The ability of the shooter to handle the chosen firearm is critical to success in armed self defense. If the shooter cannot handle the gun, is afraid of the gun, or is so unfamiliar with it that the gun cannot be made to function as intended, it is hardly the best choice for that individual shooter. My wife handles a shortened-to-fit 12 gauge 870 quite handily. My 84-year-old mother can't do that, so she has a 9mm Beretta CX4 Storm carbine that she can manage.

That's pretty much why most of us here approach these things the way we do...
 
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