Tactical Reload Merits?

[CZ52GUY]

Hi,

I'm sure this ground has been covered before...but...

...I wasn't a big fan of even the idea of Tac' Reloads. I saw some diagrams trying to explain it...from still pictures, it seemed ridiculous to me.

I wanted to shoot IDPA, so I bought a couple videos that I thought might help with terminology and basic tactical skills one should seek to understand as part of the IDPA experience.

They demonstrated tactical reloads, and so I spent about 1/2 hour in my dry-fire room practicing. I kept practicing (I continue to).

I shot my first match IDPA the other day and at every opportunity where I could choose Tac' or With Retention, I chose Tac'.

It's starting to feel more and more comfortable the more I do it.

There may be some philosophical arguments that have merit, but I'm not sure it is an inherently unfair (as a course requirement) or irrelevant technique?

I'm curious to hear observations on both sides of the debate.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[Correia]

You may want to try a search. There has probably been more argument about the tac reload in this forum than any other subject.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Will do,

Thanks,

CZ52'

 

[CZ52GUY]

I did some searches and reading...

...bottom line, those who don't care for it either:

1) Can't seem to get the hang of it
2) Believe it to include a requisite amount of "fumbling"
3) Believe there is intolerable risk of fumbling, even if they have acquired the ability to do it
4) Simply prefer RWR
5) Believe that leaving partially loaded mags on the deck is tactically sound...generally based on a "if I need the partially emptied mag's...it's my day to die" logic...

...I have to say, with my long guns, so far RWR is a clear winner...even with a 3-pt sling, I have to say that an AK reloads (especially with full capacity mag's) much easier while handling one mag at a time...although I'll continue practicing to see if I can't figure out how to Tac' Reload with it.

Bottom line for me.

I like Tac' Loads fine for HG's.
Don't care for them much for LG's.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[john l]

as far as what I do in writing/designing stages for local 3 gun and IDPA, I don't force the shooter to do a tac reload. I say in the discription, "All IDPA reloads are permitted". Then the shooter gets to do the strategizing. In and of themselves, tac reloads aren't inherently evil, and it is a technique that all martial artists of handguns should learn and learn well. In the competition forum, though, that is the real question.
From a pure realism standpoint, and since I haven't had 7-8 gunfights that I could rely on for real life experience, then slidelock reloads seem like a more likely scenario on the street for a self defence situation.
So much of IDPA and whether or not members have a quality time match after match has to do with one person of that club- the designer of the stages and his personal philosophies on what constitutes a "tactical real-life scenario". let's just for arguement's sake call the designer the "match director".
If the MD is a complete and utter buffoon, then guess how long it will take before some shooters will stop coming to that IDPA club? Well, probably between 1-12 matches before they have had enough.
That is why the MD is probably the most pivotal person in a local IDPA club.
Those of you who are the MD of your local club, that is a heavy burden, and those of you who haven't read the rule book lately--isn't it time for a review?
john l

 

[Ktulu]

I always do a tac reload (habit) when a RWR is called out for the COF. I just finished watching the Matt Burkett IDPA video and he claims a RWR is faster then a tac reload and one should RWR when ever possible. I practice tac reloads a lot and can do them alright so for now I’m sticking to um.

EDITED TO ADD: Never even considered it on a long gun like an AR-15 or something. I shoot 3-Gun but never was a RWR called out. I think 3-gun matches under IDPA rules would be interesting. Proper use of cover, RWRs, etc.

 

[CZ52GUY]

I have a carbine match on the 8th of May...local club event...based on IDPA stages with some variations for the "extra legs" the carbine provides (up to 100yds the MD says).

I expect to bring my little PC9...even though the long range stuff may be a stretch for it...because I believe I currently have bettter command of it...and I can do tac' loads because it uses pistol mag's.

I saw a Gunsite video this weekend (Tactical Carbine is title IIRC). Instructor demonstrated a tac' reload with AR15...made some sense for that platform...when I tried to translate to an AK (sharp angle of insertion required)...it was an adventure. I found that RWR's work nicely when using a 3-pt sling because from a hanging position the insertion angle isn't as much of a problem...I can "visualize" the proper alignment by looking down angle some...Tac Reloads with a full capacity mag' OTH...my size M glove hands didn't do too well...I'm going to try the following next dry-fire session.

1) retrieve "fully charged simulant mag" from storage
2) attempt to grasp mid-body of mag and place so it is aligned with receiver and resting against it.
3) position hand so that I can manipulate mag release
4) attempt to remove "empty (or partially emptied) simulant mag" from well while retaining grasp on "fully charged simulant"
5) move them both down and over and angle so I can insert the "fully charged simulant" to achieve mag' lock
6) tug on inserted mag and stow the other one

That insertion angle is one of the downsides of my AK's...hoping to practice over the summer so I can use one of them in the fall carbine match.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[Jeeper]

If you want to hear some funny cussing listen to Matt Burkett(the curent national IDPA champ in ESP) talk about the stupidity behind tac reloads in the real world. This is from a guy who trains people that actually are in gunfights. I took a class from him last weekend and that is not a subject you want to get him started on.

Personally I think it is just IDPA wanting to be different from USPSA. There is absolutely no reason for them unless ALL threats are completely gone.

 

[CZ52GUY]

If you want to hear some funny cussing listen to Matt Burkett(the curent national IDPA champ in ESP) talk about the stupidity behind tac reloads in the real world. This is from a guy who trains people that actually are in gunfights. I took a class from him last weekend and that is not a subject you want to get him started on.

My understanding is that Mr. Burkett is a respected instructor and fine shooter...what is the reasoning behind his opinions?

Personally I think it is just IDPA wanting to be different from USPSA. There is absolutely no reason for them unless ALL threats are completely gone.

Can you clarify? Are you saying "lull in the action" is a myth?

Not trying to be combative...just trying to understand the philosophical differences.

Again, I'm new at this which is why I posed the question:

RWR vs. Tac' Load
1-Both assume there is merit in replacing and stowing a partially emptied magazine in the middle of a fight.
2-Both involve retrieving a fully charged mag'
3-Both involve stowing the partially emptied mag'
4-Both involve some fumbling risk (e.g. I've "fumbled" more often with the partial mag' stowage than with the two mag manipulation...something that would be common to both techniques)
5-It seems to be a question of sequence and risk and debate over state of readiness within the sequence

That's how this newbie observes the differences...interested in the details of the why behind the strong opinions.

Thanks in advance,

CZ52'

 

[Ktulu]

Yeah, I'm curious too. I can reason why one might want to retain ammo. In USPSA I have 10 rounds in my L10 gun and 40 on my belt. Retaining a mag that's half empty doesn't make much sense.

In the real world I only carry one extra mag. Granted I only carry that extra mag in case of a jam because most CCW gunfights last only a few rounds. It doesn't seem to much of a stretch to me that a RWR or tacR behind cover one might want to keep that half loaded mag.

 

[Jeeper]

I think that the main reason isnt that there really is a lull in the action when shooting IDPA. It is a fake lull. So why fumble instead of doing a RWR. There really isnt a reason to do a tac load. If you really needed all the rounds at that point then shoot to slide lock and reload then. A true lull is WAY different than a IDPA lull.

The thing he kapt saying this weekend was,

By the time your done tac loading I can move in to your house and pitch a tent.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Jeeper

Thanks for the clarification.

Absolutely agreed that the IDPA lull's represent a simulated occurrence where cover is coveniently available. That may or may not represent an accurate replication of what you may encounter in a real world scenario.

The fumble comment assumes that the practictioner of the TacR...well...fumbles. While I'm still learning, I've observed those that are very competent who don't seem to fumble. As I indicated...my fumbles are more commonly associated with stowage of the partial mag' then trying to manipulate multiple mag's concurrently. Risk of fumbling is certainly a valid point...but in my experience it seems to be an equivalent risk between RWR or TacR...occurs at the stowage phase...with TacR...it occurs with a fully charged weapon in strong hand...with RWR...it would occur with a single round in chamber while trying to stow parital so I can retrieve a full mag' get to fully charged state.

Shooting to slide lock first assumes a legitimate opportunity to expend those rounds down range. In a game...you can always play the "I thought I needed to make up those misses" card...in a SD situation...expending extra rounds down range may not be such a great idea depending on what's down range. Additionally, shooting to slide lock provides empty chamber scenario. With either RWR OR TacR...at least you have one round in chamber during reload...with slide lock...sure you can choose speed reload and dump the empty...but better not fumble the retrieval or your SD piece just became a blunt object weapon.

With due respect to Mr. Burkett's metaphor...I'm not sure he is correct to suggest that two competent shooters can execute a RWR or TacR with a gross difference in time that is meaningful...must be one of those .5 second tents .

Again, I'm not trying to be combative...but because I'm new to this...I'm trying to understand the why's and wherefore's. I'm naturally curious as to the huff and puff that seems to go with this topic...

Has anyone who does both RWR's and TacR's well ever timed the difference? Has Mr. Burkett provided any #'s to back up his position?

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[Archie]

Just some observations...

Note, the terms "combat reload", "tactical reload", "reload with retention", "top-off", "panic reload" and others are used and re-defined by seemingly every different group and agency. They all use more or less the same terms, but mean slightly different things by those terms. For my posting only, here's what I mean. I'm not saying other terms or definitions are wrong, only that so everyone understands what I'm talking about here.

Panic reload. Gun is in slidelock, magazine is empty, still have targets to shoot.

Combat reload; tactical reload, top off Gun is not empty, but I decide to replace the magazine to have it full. Probably I will want to retain the used magazine, but if I can't, I'll move on anyway.

Reload with retention Same as above, but for any reason, I must keep those rounds left in the current magazine. In competition, this is usually mandated by rules. In reality, I may be down to my last fresh magazine and am concerned about how much ammo I'm going to need.

Admin reload In preparation for tour of duty, or when directed to load at a match.

As I said, I'm not trying to define these for anyone else, just as a frame of reference.

I don't shoot in IDPA, so I won't comment on rules or expectations. I don't know Matt Burkett or about him, so I don't know if I'm agreeing with him or not. I'm not interested in starting any arguements, just expanding on this discussion.

Here are a few things about reloads in dangerous situations:

1. When one shoots in a defensive encounter, one usually fires more rounds than one thinks.
I've shot PPC and bullseye (where round counting is fairly easy) and I've shot semi-unformatted 'jungle rules' matches. Even after planning where to reload, it is very easy to loose round count. In a match, one always knows (more or less) how many adversaries (hostile targets) remain. Not so in real life. Waiting until the pistol (rifle, shotgun, machinegun) is empty makes for an embarassing gap in your plan of action. By the same token, if you're in the middle of the beaten zone, you ought not stop and fish out another magazine and reload at leisure.

2. The best place for ammo is in the gun. However much ammo one has in magazine pouches cannot be used until loaded.

3. Usually, a tactical reload or reload with retention is not done 'under the clock'. By this, I mean that one elects to reload while in cover. After reloading, one steps out from cover to continue the mission, or the forces of the unholy hove around the corner 'restarting the clock', so to speak. Only a panic reload is done under time, or under hostile fire, and that is because one cannot avoid it.
Matches usually time from "signal" until last round fired or last target hit. In the event of movement during the course of fire, in real life the shooter has some option of timing between segments. It is possible that opposing forces may not allow one's timing, but that is part of the tactical aspect. (Watch the shootout in the original "High Noon" with Gary Cooper to understand what I mean. He choreographed the battle to his advantage.)

Therefore;

One reloads after firing any rounds at all, as soon as it is safe to reload.

One salvages all loose rounds possible, but not at risk to one's self. Nor should one confuse the issue of getting the gun back in operation with a juggling routine.

One is not rushed by an artificial sense of urgency.

And for heaven's sake, remember to breathe.....

 

[CZ52GUY]

re: Archie

Thanks for the observations.

They seem rational and were clearly stated.

Thanks!

CZ52'

 

[john l]

Adding to all the good comments, here's a purely tactical question in the context of a gunfight in progress:
Why would anyone want to unload their pistol down to one round for any amount of time?

If you are shooting a revolver, you would be completely unloading your weapon. Doesn't seem too wise.

The "lull" in the action may have ended as soon as you hit the mag release button.

I believe the terminology for that is "now you're screwed without the benefit of intercourse".

I agree with many others who say that many IDPA rules exist as simply as that they are different from IPSC- which implies that they aren't necessarily better. For example, let's take my scenario above, a gunfight in progress. If you knew that you only had one round left in your pistol, then wouldn't it be a little dumb not to drop the empty mag and replace it with a full one? Oh, but you can't do that in IDPA. w/o a procedural. Hmmm.
john l.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Trying to break it down...

...I'm an analyst...it's what I do...

Let's leave it at autoloading pistols for a moment, just to make it more simple.

Let's use a 1911 using 7-rd mag's.

Gunfight ensues, assume 7+1 for GG carrying 1911.

She/He's got 8 total to work with in Gun.

At some point in fight, he/she may determine that 7+1 may not carry the day...this may not be a "statistically correct" gunfight that's over in 3-5 shots (depending on which stat's you are working with).

Let's say GG has fired 4, down to 4 left.

A reload is deemed necessary by GG. Ideally behind cover...executed as rapidly as possible.

From point of view of GG:
Choice # 1 - Don't reload (Wait for Slidelock)...4 more better do it...or I'm in thick solid waste...I'm more afraid of going down to 1 in chamber temporarily then taking the time to do a mid-fight reload...(say they are pretty good and can do the Hackathorn Tac' Reload in 3 seconds IIRC PAR time correctly...say RWR or Speed Reload can be executed minimally as fast...perhaps faster). This is a choice, not a limit on ability to perform the rapid reload.

At slide lock, dump and retrieve, insert full mag, release slide. Time with 0 in chamber? Any significance in successful reload taking you to only 7rds?

Impact of choice...4 remain...perhaps 4 will provide opportunity to defeat enemy or retreat out of harms way...or will result in untimely demise based on the choice. Still opportunity to reload at 3,2,1,0. Forget about type of reload for a minute...this is a deliberate choice to avoid reloading.

Choice # 2 - Rapid reload - okay, now that you have determined to take the risk of reloading mid-fight (and all the risks that go with it), which method?

Speed Reload - Drop the partial on the deck, down to 1, rapidly insert full mag'...hope that this isn't an "extremely statistically incorrect fight". Assuming drop free mag's, you avoid the time to stow the partial, retrieval and insertion common to all three methods (Speed, TacR, RWR).

Sequence = Retrieve (leaves 4 for good amount of time) - Drop the partial, insert full charge...back up to 8...time with 1 in chamber?

RWR - Remove the partial, down to 1, stow the partial, still at 1, retrieve the partial and insert...to get back up to 8...time with 1 in chamber?

TacR - Retrieve (leaves 4 for good amount of time) - Swap the partial for the full...get back up to 8, stow the partial...time with 1 in chamber?

Impact of choices assuming mid-fight reload is chosen:
SpeedR - Fast, less fumble risk because there is no stowage step...rounds dropped may not be recoverable if needed later. Fairly minimal time between 4-1-8. Still some amount of risk of retrieval fumble inherent with any reload decision.

RWR - Some fumble risk which could turn an intended RWR into a SpeedR if stowage fumble occurs. Some risk of fumble during retrieval. Time from 4-1-8 could extend if you fumble stow of partial and/or retrieval.

TacR - Requires greatest amount of fine motor skills during the fight...need to concurrently manipulate two smooth rounded objects that may contact each other (generally using non-dominant hand) certainly one could argue fumble risk is elevated by non-dom' manipulation of multiple objects under duress. If executed well, does provide minimum 4-1-8 duration, with the retention of additional rounds if needed later.

What did I miss? Misunderstand?

Thanks,

CZ52'

 

[faustulus]

the 'get shot in the head while I fumble with this mag' reload has been argued to death.
RWR or Tac is the way Bill Wilson's game is played. I tend to try to shoot to slidelock if I can, if I can't I do a RWR.
To me it doesn't really matter, it is just a game. In real life I seldom carry a backup. If I couldn't get it done with 14-18 rounds I should have been more careful.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Respectfully

the 'get shot in the head while I fumble with this mag' reload has been argued to death.

Assumes a fumble occurs and that sufficient proficiency to avoid this unhappy circumstance is not attainable. Given what I've observed, it seems that some folks do attain a level of proficiency with rapid reloads (regardless of method) which can mitigate this risk.

RWR or Tac is the way Bill Wilson's game is played. I tend to try to shoot to slidelock if I can, if I can't I do a RWR.

That's within the rules as I understand them...as long as the slidelock does not take a FTDR to get there.

To me it doesn't really matter, it is just a game. In real life I seldom carry a backup. If I couldn't get it done with 14-18 rounds I should have been more careful.

Many folks have this perspective (re: IRL...should have been more careful...). I guess I'm more inclined to want to stack the odds in my favor IRL. I'm also of the mind set, "if I'm breathin', I'm fightin'". I'll never be posting anything along the lines of "if this or that doesn't do it...I guess I'm a goner'..." It just isn't in me...maybe I'm just wired different?

Not casting judgment in any way. I enjoy the faustulus posts I've read and respect this member's opinions. I just happen to be of a different point of view.

Here's hoping none of us ever have to find out!


I know I still have a lot more to learn, but my preliminary conclusions are as follows:
1) I see merit in gaining a proficiency in multiple methods of rapid reloads.
2) I don't believe all fights are necessarily going to be "statisitically correct". Many will.
3) I expect to try to prepare myself (in part through the gaming process) for "statistically incorrect" fights. I'd like to think that if I'm able to SpeedR, TacR, or RWR...I can't see it as a liability. Input regarding the factors leading to the decision as to when to do one is something I'll reserve for formal classwork.
4) Games are still games...you play within the rules...you learn as much as you can out of them to get the best value from the experience.
5) There will never be consensus on the merits of whether to rapidly reload during a fight, whether it ever makes sense to, or which method to use if you do. .

Thanks to all, I've learned a lot through the discussion.


Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[faustulus]

I don't mean to suggest you shouldn't keep fighting, or at least trying to survive. I just meant to say that I ususally don't carry an extra mag. and you the 'get shot ...' does not automatically assume a fumble many people take their eyes off the target to reload and to stow the mag. but I look at it this way, I am pumping full of adreneline, I want to cut the number of movements I need to recharge my weapon to a bear minimum. Adding an extra movement or two doesn't seem like such a good idea (yes they do if fine in games and would probably do it right in life, but as you suggested, lets assume something bad has happened and things are not going according to plan/training.)
it is interesting to note that to my knowlege this idea of retaining mags came about because of a speical situation. IIRC it was Bill Wilson at thunder ranch (or which ever one he was at) who started doing a retention after people dropped their 1911 mags in the soft sand and the mags didn't want to function reliably afterward. As a solution, instructors had students retain the mags. just something i have heard from several sources, for what it is worth.
And while I will fight to the end i must come to the realizeation that God may have a different plan and he runs the game.
there take that horse

 

[CZ52GUY]

faustulus

All valid points.

Didn't attempt to take anything out of context...appreciate the context you provided.

Stay safe,

CZ52'

 

[faustulus]

CZ52GUY,
No worries mate, I never thought you were attacking me. I just like to bitch about silly IDPA rules from time to time

 

[CZ52GUY]

I think it's a simple case of the "Golden Rule"...Bill's got the gold, so he rules .

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[Smoke]

5) Believe that leaving partially loaded mags on the deck is tactically sound...generally based on a "if I need the partially emptied mag's...it's my day to die" logic...

I see you read my post. I'm firmly in this camp.

Let me explain my reasons.

1. I'm uncoordinated on a good day. trying to manipulate two mags, while keeping a gun on target and avoiding getting shot is not something I do well. Add adrenaline and fear and guess what....Doesn't look good.

2. I play the statisitics. They say I probably won't ever be in a gun fight at all. I often don't have a spare mag if I'm carrying a high cap gun. Sometimes I don't even have a reload for my single stacks. In the event I do have to fight my way out, I'm banking on the badguys going down with the 7-8 (or more) rounds in the gun, or having second thoughts, or scattering. Or me running like snoose through a goose.

3. I have a method of training developed by a guy I have a great amount of respect for. He teaches one reload method. Get the old one out and a new one in and let the old be damned. I don't see reason to break training.

4. Why do you reload?
a) the gun is empty
b) you have the opportunity
c) the gun screws up
I shoot the 1911 platform. I expect all my guns to be dead solid reliable or they don't get carried. But stuff happens. The #1 reason a 1911 malfunctions is due to a mag. If that might be the problem; why would I want to retain a bad mag.

5. Gross motor skills. My method of training uses gross motor skills. It is proven that as adrenaline and fear goes up, fine motor skills go down. Show me how to manipulate a RWR with out some fine motor skills and I might try to develop a method.

6. Speed. I know people claim a RWR can be accomplished fast. But I'm not talking with IPSC gear. I'm talking real life carry gear. Leaving a mag on the deck is much faster than trying to retain the empty/partial mag.

7. Stubborness. Need I elaborate?

Smoke

 

[Archie]

Another couple thoughts....

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but...

The big turning point regarding "reloading" under fire was the Newhall Killings of the early 1970s. In short, two criminals killed four CHP officers in the parking lot of a restaurant in Newhall, California.

One of the talking points of the incident was one of the officers was found, dead, with a handful of empty brass from his revolver. Bad Reloading Form. Associated with that subject was high-capacity weapons, autoloaders in general that would give a quicker reload time and so forth.

What was never addressed in public was the four officers all fired six shots at two suspects without scoring a single hit! That was twenty-four rounds (twelve at each suspect, I suppose) without a hit.

Now I ask you all: Should we emphasize reloading, or should we emphasize marksmanship?

My plan is to put a couple rounds high center mass and then reload during the lull thereby created.

Another thought:

What is the point of firing all the ammunition on one’s person at once?
How many adversaries does one anticipate? Should I expect a ‘human wave’ attack?

I’ve shot in ‘combat’ matches wherein the competitor had to knock down thirty targets. Thirty? What is this supposed to simulate, or what does this teach? Had these been aggressive opponents, the last four or five could have killed me with toothbrushes!

In twenty-two years of law enforcement, I’ve never seen or read report of human wave attacks by armed (or unarmed) aggressors; except for some riots. Those riots were not attacks on individual officers, but semi-organized mob actions. They are pretty much the exception. I’ve never seen the need for a twenty round burst.

Being able to reload positively and quickly is something any handgun shooter should know, but it’s way down the list of skills.

 

[faustulus]

I’ve shot in ‘combat’ matches wherein the competitor had to knock down thirty targets. Thirty? What is this supposed to simulate, or what does this teach?

Fun?