Taking a gun from a robber?

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Ok, I dont mean to sound like a martial arts Chuck Norris wanna-be. However, in my martial arts class we were taught police/miltary gun disarms and whatnot. Very effective, very quick. Would I be able to react and use them in real life? I dont know.

Anyway, say you are walking down the street and the "masked armed robber" pops out. Ya know, the cliche armed bad guy. He holds the gun with 1 hand at your chest and you feel you can take it from him. Ok, so you take the gun from him and reverse the situation. If, in the heat of the moment you were trained to return fire and you do, would you be likely to be charged with shooting an unarmed individual?

I feel that many defense attorneys for the "victim of the shooting" would argue that the threat was over and I didnt have to shoot. OR they would paint the criminal in a good light saying that he was robbing people to feed his family or something like that, in an effort to put the blame on me.

I hope im not too cynical to believe such things. I mean with the way our criminal justice system is headed and the amount of lawsuits on a daily basis, I would be surprised if someone didnt try to charge or sue me in the situation. Also, I know the laws vary from state to state for situations like this. So its hard to expect a 100% definate answer.

But its just been something thats been in my head for a while, I figure Ill try to get an answer anyhow.

Thanks

-Kev

 

[neoncowboy]

In my state, the law seems to read that we're justified in using lethal force to respond to a forcible felony in commission. It doesn't say anything about armed/unarmed, etc.

So, yeah...if you're in the middle of comitting an armed robbery in Georgia, you're liable to get shot.

 

[jlseagull]

Yup. You're already established the triangle of ability, opportunity and intent. Just because he's lost his gun doesn't mean he's lost the ability to kill.

Now if you've managed to disarm him, and one of you ran 50', then you shot him, I think the fact that you're out of striking range would be counted as a de-escilation of the situation. If he didn't have a ranged weapon anymore and you nailed him then, you'd have some issues.

 

[beerslurpy]

You wrestled for his gun and it went off. He died.

 

[Cortez]

Disarming him is relatively easy if you are close enough. In fact the technique is so effective you can even tell him "I'm now going to take your gun from you" and he can start squeezing his trigger in anticipation and will beat him to it safely every time. Try it SAFELY in your next martial arts class.

Rifles are the easiest and once you have it in your hands, a solid butt stroke to the temple area will put him out of commission immediately.

The process of taking a pistol off an assailant will probably break his trigger finger if done properly and cause the gun to fire. Therefore look at possible targets to your left (if you are right handed).

You don't have to shoot him when you have the gun off him. Use the gun to smash him in the throat in the vicinity of his adam's apple. I can assure you he will lose all interest in anything esle except trying to breath for quite a while.

If you still feel at risk but still don't want to kill him, ram your thumbs deeply into his eyes. You'll probably blind him permanently but remember - he started this and you are fighting for your life without trying to take his. So he suffers some real damage - tough - he should find another occupation.

 

[shermacman]

There are a whole bunch of "ifs" when discussing the possibility of disarming a gun wielding punk. At very close range it can be done, but you had better be ready to fight like a pro. Close range means close for both of you. The battle could get played out in hand-to-hand combat.

At any distance beyond immediate contact, perhaps two feet and out to around twelve, you had better just give up your wallet. That is the lethal zone.

 

[Standing Wolf]

You wrestled for his gun and it went off. He died.

Aw. How sad.

 

[Cortez]

What shermacman says is true. What I described is for close in work, although you can usually draw them in close by feigning terror. They usually want to get up real close then to intimidate you further.

Whatever else you do, if you decide to go ahead with what I described, there must be no hesitation on your part. He will not expect your reaction and will therefore be at a disadvantage and you musn't give him time to recover.

If you don't think you are up to what I have described - don't attempt it. If you do go for it, go all out and no pausing until he is down and damaged.

Don't do anything I have suggested without practising it extensively first in a self defence class. It has to be second nature and really fast.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

These disarming tactics are shaky at best. It is one thing to try that with fake guns in a Dojo..and another thing to try that on someone with a real loaded and cocked gun.


Most of this TV-type junk assumes you can get in close enough. I challenge Chuck Norris to disarm me ANYDAY. Who the hell says I will let him get close enough? Who says I will only fire one shot? If I am the aggressor with the firearm, then I wouldn't be using the gun as a bluff.. I intend to shoot all those who don't comply. I don't intend on getting too close either.


I'm not against this type of training. It is certainly better than nothing when you are in deep trouble. Key word trouble..it's probably better to train not to end up in a predicament like that in the first place. Better to train to draw quickly and initiate the gunfight on your terms at the first sight of a firearm exposed in a threatening manner towards you.


You might certainly be shot doing that, but guess what? You might certainly get shot trying to disarm the guy with whatever ninjitsu-tai-kwon-kung-fu you've got. Better to be returning fire and get shot than to be playing the wrestling game while being shot.

 

[Cortez]

Fine for you, Don't Tread on Me, but some of us don't have the luxury (or the right) of carrying, in which case you either choose to be a victim or you fight back.

As for whether the tactics I described work or not - they do and with real guns. If you are within range ie 2 feet, you simply cannot get a shot off quickly enough to stop the disarming action.

Hell, don't believe me - get a gun and try it with a friend - but try not to break his trigger finger in the process. It's easy to do.

 

[gunsmith]

The perp told you

before you shot him that he was reaching for his
BUG it's not your fault he was bluffing

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

If you are within range ie 2 feet, you simply cannot get a shot off quickly enough to stop the disarming action.

Who says (if I were the perp) I'd be within 2ft of my victim? If I took up a life of thuggery and decided that I'd use a firearm as the ultimatum in muggings, I'd be prepared to use it as such. Not as a bluff. I wouldn't get close enough, nor would the victim be wise to charge me.


Again, that training is fine if you run into a stupid thug (which most are), but to place so much effort into assuming they will be stupid, or at a certain distance is pretty shakey stuff. Most situations are very bleak for the victim..contrary to the imagery of the training they received.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it, I just don't value it very much. I believe one should do anything they can to survive. So I am with you on that. I used to work in NY State and made more money than I do in Florida, I don't care though, I can carry here. I'm glad I left that socialist ****-hole.

 

[Tokugawa]

Never been there, never done that- but I do know for sure when you are s#$%&@ scared(and you will be scared) that things take on a different perspective. The difference between walking along a 2x6 on the ground, and one 25 feet in the air. Same 2x6......

 

[pax]

Who says (if I were the perp) I'd be within 2ft of my victim? If I took up a life of thuggery and decided that I'd use a firearm as the ultimatum in muggings, I'd be prepared to use it as such. Not as a bluff. I wouldn't get close enough, nor would the victim be wise to charge me.

Awhile back, one of the evening news programs did a piece about robberies/murders at convenience stores. They were crusading for a law requiring at least 2 clerks present at all times -- but the interesting thing was that they showed a lot of footage from video cameras of actual attacks.

Every single one of the thugs waved their guns in the victims' faces.

What you would do, as an intelligent bad guy, is irrelevant. The really intelligent bad guys were working for Enron and skimming millions, not risking their own lives to grab a few bucks from the Stop-n-Rob.

pax

 

[Crosshair]

OK all these Chuck Norris moves are all fine and dandy, but what do you do when the attackers buddy comes from the shaddows with his sawed off 12 gauge?

Cortez, the people in your senario must have the reaction time of a pizza if you can what you say you can do. Sorry, but the "disarm the perp" is a party trick at best IMHO.

Edit: Spelling

 

[pax]

Crosshair,

Apparently my friends and I all have the reaction time of pizza too. Using first plain dummy guns and then Code Eagle guns, we've practiced exactly what Cortez says.

Amazingly enough, action beats reaction, every time. Even in a class situation, where the other guy knows exactly what you are going to do ... action beats reaction.

(Though I did see one poor fellow get shot with Code Eagle at close range, because he telegraphed his move rather than just doing it. Practice is good...)

Now, would I try this in real life? If I thought I was going to get killed anyway, damn right I would. I'd rather live than die, but if I must die -- I'll die on my feet, head-up and trying.

pax

 

[hso]

We've had the "do disarms work" discussion over and over again in StratTac and in Non-Firearm. Nothing is 100% guaranteed to succed all the time, ... or fail. This is just another example and unless you've done it you can't know for sure. I've done hundreds of disarms with Red Guns, barrel-less .45s, and simunition Glocks. I've done it with fellow students and people intent on getting the shot off. I've done it warmed up and cold and having been sparing with the adrenaline flowing and suddenly had a disarm drill run. Once you've practiced under various conditions you have nearly a 90% success rate. If you are within contact range Pax and Cortez are correct, if you act without telegraphing your moves you have a very good chance of disarming your opponent. Notice the caveats, "within contact range", "without telegraphing", "act". My training puts the gun in the BG's throat or armpit most of the time with the trigger getting pulled as soon as it points at him. It's part and parcel to the techniques and constitutes 'shot while struggling for the gun'. As long as it's him 'shot while struggling for the gun' I can live with that and in TN I probably wouldn't even be detained.

 

[jeepmor]

Yes, it works

I had the same training years ago while in Karate and we used something like an airsoft. It was pretty surprising to me how you could beat the "thug" at pointblank range nearly all the time.

We were also trained on how to keep the gun from getting back in his hands by keeping that distance about 5 feet or so. Should said BG charge to get his gun back, then the last thing he would see is a flash, maybe several.

However, if he turns and runs off and you pop him in the back, that won't sit well with the parasites we call criminal defense lawyers either. It shows a de-escalation and whether the guy deserved it or not (he pulled the gun, not you) won't come into play in a legal battle. However, should BG become dead, his family will come after you with a civil suit that they will likely win considering the pathetic state of affairs our legal system has degraded to.

jeepmor

 

[beerslurpy]

The moral of the story is to not close to grappling range unless you intend to grapple.

But robbers are stupid, or they would get into more sustainable scams like management consulting or class action litigation. Someone who has to risk jail or death every time they make a few hundred bucks is not going to be pulling in six figures. I would be surprised if they broke into the thousands. You have a short, rockstar career and then a long stretch in a retirement home.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Awhile back, one of the evening news programs did a piece about robberies/murders at convenience stores. They were crusading for a law requiring at least 2 clerks present at all times -- but the interesting thing was that they showed a lot of footage from video cameras of actual attacks.

Every single one of the thugs waved their guns in the victims' faces.

What you would do, as an intelligent bad guy, is irrelevant. The really intelligent bad guys were working for Enron and skimming millions, not risking their own lives to grab a few bucks from the Stop-n-Rob.

Well said, and very true. I too have seen an aweful lot of videos where thugs take the gun and put it within 1ft of a persons face. I guess its that "gangstah" style crap. They must learn hostage holding and mugging techniques from television.

Also, I suppose someone bright enough to study the finer details of a deadly force threat situation wouldn't be getting involved in robbing stores in the first place.

However, I just don't like getting into the habit of assuming they will always be stupid. Knowing my luck, I'd end up squared against a smart-thug. Regardless, my plan is very simple. It involves the retaliation of deadly force till there is a conclusion. There's gambles in life, and I'd rather bet on myself, than bet on some scumbag's compassion.

 

[DunedinDragon]

Fine for you, Don't Tread on Me, but some of us don't have the luxury (or the right) of carrying, in which case you either choose to be a victim or you fight back.

As for whether the tactics I described work or not - they do and with real guns. If you are within range ie 2 feet, you simply cannot get a shot off quickly enough to stop the disarming action.

Hell, don't believe me - get a gun and try it with a friend - but try not to break his trigger finger in the process. It's easy to do.

Tell you what...next time you practice this maneuver tell the person you are practicing it on that they are allowed to use any and all methods they would like to prevent you from taking their gun. That includes eye gouging, biting, head-butting, pulling you to the ground, i.e. resisting in any way they'd like as hard as they can and see exactly how successful you are.

Even though you're using real guns, you are not using real reactions to the events. Maybe, and I say MAYBE, if you trained on this scenario thousands of times so that it became second nature and your reaction time was fast enough you might have a 50-50 chance of being successful depending on the reaction of the person you are dealing with.

 

[Cortez]

DunedinDragon

Even though you're using real guns, you are not using real reactions to the events. Maybe, and I say MAYBE, if you trained on this scenario thousands of times so that it became second nature and your reaction time was fast enough you might have a 50-50 chance of being successful depending on the reaction of the person you are dealing with.

Sorry, but you're wrong. However, you're entitled to believe what you like.

 

[Zen21Tao]

I have studied Martial Arts for many years. The diasarming technique DOES work if you can react quicker than it takes to squeeze a trigger. I do not think this technique would work if you gave advanced warning though. Also, your movemens to perpare to initate this techique could spook the person resulting in him shooting you. Basically you need to get your hands close enough to smack the muzzle of the gun. Then you need to smack the muzzle and move it about two inches in less than the 8/10th of a second it takes to squeeze a trigger. If everything works out it is a beautiful technique.

For those that know the technique:
Notice that when you smack the muzzle of the gun and tourque it around to trap his index finger around in the trigger guard all you have to do (if it is a cocked auto) is smack the back side of the gun and you make the crimals index finger push the trigger making the gun fire into the criminal. What a beautiful techique. You end up with the gun in your hand and the criminal actually shot himself. Plus, after you have the gun and the police arrive demand the gun be finger printed to show your prints are not on the trigger.

 

[dfaugh]

action beats reaction, every time

Tell you what...next time you practice this maneuver tell the person you are practicing it on that they are allowed to use any and all methods they would like to prevent you from taking their gun. That includes eye gouging, biting, head-butting, pulling you to the ground, i.e. resisting in any way they'd like as hard as they can and see exactly how successful you are.

Very successful--because I'm not JUST gonna take the gun away. The way we were trained (I studied several different martial arts for many years), was to take the gun out of the picture, and follow through with an incapacitating strike. Fight over, .01 seconds elapsed time. As long as I move first, I win. Period.

Applies to guns, knives...If you're within a couple feet of me, you're screwed.

And yes, I've done it, to a guy that shot me in the back with a .25(He shoulda used a bigger gun). Spun on him, took out his gun hand (yup, broken trigger finger), then lights out.

 

[Cortez]

I'm glad to see that some of you have tried this and had it work.

I've trained a lot of people in the army on this technique and I've heard a whole range of opinions from them about how successful it was going to be - until I did it to them and then they changed their minds.

As I think I said previously, I have said to people I'm training "OK get ready because I'm now going to take the gun away from you before you can pull the trigger" and had it out of their hands before they could blink. It is not a fancy technique, it simply requires commitment and a belief that it works - which it does. It is a FACT that no one can react fast enough to get a shot off before they are disarmed.

As I said, getting the gun is stage one. Breaking his finger is part of the deal too if done properly and with intent but the main thing is the follow up. As I said before a hard chop to the adam's apple makes them lose interest real quick (I got to lerarn about this when I was younger and was hit in the adam's apple by a very fast rising bouncer in a cricket match - and it nearly killed me. It's the worst feeling in the world)

I'm also fond of the deep eye gouge. You may be unarmed in the conventional sense but it is surprising the amount of damage you can do to a person if you really intend to - and it beats being a victim.