Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer: A critique.

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I've recently read the paper 'Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan
Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer ' and have serious concerns regarding the quality of the analysis, for reasons I will demonstrate below.

The original is here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B09fZpC9S7gDN2JkOTRjNzktMzE0NC00MDRkLTk0M2EtN2M4NGY0MGE4MjY5


However, open source data state that the majority of infantry combat with small arms occur at ranges below 300m. The overwhelming majority occurs below 200m. This is in direct conflict with Major T. Ehrhart's paper: Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan: Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer.

My primary question concerns ranges of engagement. Major T. Ehrhart states 'Operations in Afghanistan frequently require United States ground forces to engage and destroy the enemy, often at ranges beyond 300 meters'.

He cites as his sources: Interview with MAJ (P) Vern Randall, National Police Zone G3 mentor, Afghanistan, August 31, 2009. MAJ Randall stated that “The average small arms engagement range here in RC-East is 500 meters” and 'After-action reviews and comments from returning non-commissioned officers and officers reveal that about fifty percent of engagements occur past 300 meters.'

How many people were interviewed or surveyed? What survey questions were asked. How representative were the locations and personnel surveyed? Was Major Randall's location typical?How large is Major Randal's location? Are there any other locations surveyed, or personnel besides Major Randal? What is the time frame of the survey? What is his sample size?

The entire point of Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer rests on this one issue: What is the range troops fight at?

From the research I've done from open sources, it would seem that either the Afghan theater is a extreme outlier when it comes to engagement ranges or Major T. Ehrhart's main premise is wrong.

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any open sources of studies done on the average range of firefights in Afghanistan. So I'm forced to consult older works that analyze WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.

Works that are declassified are ORO-R-13 (Infantry Operations and Weapons 27 October 1951) which deals with the Korean War and Evaluation of Small Arms Effectiveness Criteria, Vol. 2, which uses data from WWII (both European and South Pacific theaters), Korea, and Vietnam.

ORO-R-13 (Infantry Operations and Weapons 27 October 1951)
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B09fZpC9S7gDNzQ4MTU4NTktNDBhYS00ODJiLTk4OGMtYWY2YTZkYmViMGQz

Evaluation of Small Arms Effectiveness Criteria, Vol. 2
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B09fZpC9S7gDMGVjMDA4NDUtZjc0ZC00NzY3LWFhMDMtNDIyOTMyZDY0OTIz

These two studies used completely different methodologies to determine the average range of infantry engaging the enemy in combat. However, both point to an average range of engagement that is surprisingly short, and both studies are consistent with each other.

First, the ORO-R-13 report, (Infantry Operations and Weapons 27 October 1951), is a study of combats that occurred when the Chinese Communist Forces (CCF) entered the Korea War in late 1951. That study determined by interviewing and surveying combat troops that:

'The average effective infantry fire with weapons lighter than the machine gun was consistently less than 200 yards. In no instance was it established, in the operations brought under survey, that any significant move by enemy forces had been stopped and turned by rifle and carbine fire alone at ranges in excess of that figure.'

'But in interrogating the witnesses to these various encounters, in no case could it be established that a decisive fire from rifle and carbine was delivered at a range in excess of 200 yards. There is only this type of exception to be noted: enemy patrols were frequently engaged at slightly beyond 200 yards range ; the first fire might knock down one or two of their number; the others then scampered away. However, when an enemy patrol or larger body is walking into a concealed position under such conditions
that the defenders feel their advantage, they customarily hold fire until it is within the 200-yard zone.'
ORO-R-13, p7-8

The Evaluation of Small Arms Effectiveness Criteria used a different method to determine ranges. That study reviewed combat photographer footage from WWII (both European and South Pacific theaters), Korea, and Vietnam to determine how men were actually fighting in combat. The available 800 reels of film were reviewed and 777 usable samples of combat firing where range could be estimated were used.

The study determined that:

'Considering the variety of sources, however, the data are quite consistent in showing that the bulk of small arms combat takes place at under 100 meters, and a negligible percent of firings or casualties takes place beyond 300 meters.'
Evaluation of Small Arms Effectiveness, Vol.2 p D-18

Please note, this includes troops firing M1 Garands, BARs, M14 rifles, and M60 GPMGs, not just M1 carbines and M16s.

I don't have access to or read either German or Russian to look for any applicable studies, but I find it consistent that after extensive combat experience, both the Third Reich and the Soviets adopted rifles (StG-44, SKS and AK-47) firing intermediate cartridges. The only possible conclusion is that both felt that a ~300m effective range was adequate for infantry rifles.

ORO did find that, in Korea, ranges did go up when fires from the BAR and LMG were included. but this simply demonstrates the need for squad and platoon level automatic weapons, and does not add to the discussion regarding the individual infantry soldier's best firearm.

'The equation alters radically as soon as automatic fire, either from the BAR or the LMG, is added to the rifle volume. The killing-stopping zone then lengthens anywhere from 200 to 400 yards, depending upon the number of automatic weapons, the ability of the gunners, the governing terrain conditions, the weather, visibility, and general situation.'
ORO-R-13, p7-8

Unfortunately for Major T. Ehrhart's central premise, this shows that troops firing the M1 Garand, BAR, M1919 LMG, M14, and M60 GPMG, all weapons firing full power rifle cartridges, still only rarely engaged the enemy past 400m.

This graph sums up the issue quite well.

combat+firing+ranges.jpg

Evaluation of Small Arms Effectiveness, Vol.2 p E-20

The only conclusion I can draw is that either Major T. Ehrhart is wrong about the normal range of engagement in Afghanistan (possibly due to a statistically unrepresentative or inaccurate sample) or the conditions in Afghanistan are radically different from every other place the Army and Marines have fought in the 20th century. If the true normal range in Afghanistan is 500m should we be re-equipping our troops with a weapon that's useful there, but will be less than idea under almost every other circumstance?

This is vital because all firearms are a series of compromises. If infantry rifles are optimized for the occasional few percent of times they are needed for 500m shots (and this presumes that individual soldiers can be uniformly trained to make 500m shots) they can not be optimum for the vast majority of times they are needed below 200m as shown by the decision of many experienced armies to abandon the full-power rifles for intermediate cartridges during WII and after. If those post-war studies are correct, more troops will die if they are armed with a 500m target rifle that's less than idea for close range combat than if they have a effective short range weapon that optimized for the under 200m fight.

Please note, I'm not saying that the M4, chambered in 5.56, firing SS109, is the ideal infantry rifle, or that the current training is perfect. Nor am I saying that more effective ammunition can't be developed for the M4, preferably with better terminal ballistic effects.

There are a lot of clues in the papers I've cited about why infantry fights under 200m, but that, along with discussion of just what improvements could be made to the M4 and its ammunition is another topic.

BSW
 
The way I see it, we need M4's but some rifles and M14's in the mix sure do help.

WWII was fought with a mix of M1 Rifles, Carbines, tommy Guns etc on the same battlefield. Lets not forget about artillery!


Use the tool don't let the tool use you.
 
Personally I don't know too many target shooters that can see past 200 meters clearly, without optical aids. The reason small arms battles take place inside 200 meters generally is likely because that's about the range when people start to be able to tell what's what visually. As soon as you add magnification to the optics, you lose close range effectiveness unless it's a tip-off or QD magnifier, regardless of the weapon the optic is mounted on.
 
Afghanistan is different from Vietnam, Korea, and Europe. There is a lot more open terrain and not as much cover, hence engagements typically take place at longer ranges.

The Soviets in 1980s faced the same problem - the 5.45 round of their AK-74 did not have enough reach, especially when shooting uphill. They compensated by using SVD and machineguns.

In Afghanistan the weapon of choice is 12.7 mm DSchK.
 
The mountains in Afghanistan are much like those of prime elk habitat in the western US.
I think cross canyon shots could easily average 4-500 meters. On the open flat ground those ranges don't seem that far out of whack either if the enemy if behind cover.
The weapons available should be fine for COM hits at those distances especially with a 4x optic.
 
Depends on the engagement. I have a couple of Special Ops nephews who do their work up close and personal. My eldest nephew told me that he rarely engages anyone beyond 25 meters and he carried a wide variety of "tools."
 
This has been discussed before. Not an Afgan vet but I will speculate that the enemy doesn't want to get into a close in pitched battle much so employs harassment fire from long range using heavier rifles or machine guns. Then retreat before they are counter attacked by support weapons or assaulted. I agree that it is a good idea to use 7.62 NATO rifles to supplement M4 and M16. Since nobody is willing to attack our guys in mass, current tactics and equipment are working so far. I agree there is room for improvement
but other than adding more cover fire there isn't alot more to do since our guys are once again fighting insurgents. Remember we won the conventionalwars in Iraq and Afganistan pretty handily. It is keeping control and trying to convert a whole country to democracy that's hard. Especially since this administration is taking away democracy here. Whoops off topic again sorry.
 
gee....I wonder whhy the M14s are making a comeback. M16s and the puny .223 aint getting the job done. I am an old grunt from 40 years ago, the .223 is a piece of crap along with the M16, nnew M4s etc. not for todays warfare. .308 is an ass kicker.
 
I feel compelled to point out that each rifleman that armed with a 7.62 NATO rifle with a magnified optic is one that's less effective in the 200m and under fire fight.

The other point I would make is that troops do not fight alone, but as a squad. The squad MGs proved to be more effective at longer ranges in the Korean only data. The Effectiveness of Small Arms study didn't break down the effective ranges by weapon type.

BSW
 
A few M14 got pulled out of the armory, but they are getting replaced by the M110 system for snipers. What I have heard is that DMR roles seem to be filled mainly by a M16A4's with ACOGs, with a scant few rattle-trap M14 floating around. 4MOA out of the old M14s is all you can hope for, if not worse.

An M16A4 with the right ammo is more then capable of inflicting casualties at 500+ yards.

+1 on what PPS43 said. When our guys get engaged at 400+ yards, its usually with a .30 or .50 cal machine gun, not with a rifle. That, and I have to wonder how much of the enemy's fire is area vs point fire.

Honestly, I suspect the greatest difficulty in rifle engagments in A-stan is due to terrain: It provides a lot of very good cover. You can arm everyone with a 0.5 MOA 300 Win Mag rifle, and I doubt it would make that much difference, since when all you ave us a head and a shoulder at 500 yards thats shooting at you or dashing from boulder to boulder, calmly lining up that shot and making it connect will be anything but easy.
 
Honestly, I suspect the greatest difficulty in rifle engagments in A-stan is due to terrain

Combats don't happen on a mowed known distance range with no cover, in the day light?

Who knew?

The problem with shooting men is they hide behind and in all that pesky terrain, usually while wearing drab clothing.

LK
 
I read that about 6 months ago, all 72 pages (I think) of it. See what they recommend the 223 be replaced by the 6.5Gren or the 6.8SPC and they even mention the Piston uppers (cant remember exactly what they said but I think it was the piston upper may be more reliable in a desert enviroment then the DI (I think). They talk about some soldiers that had been shot in the chest by the 223 and not sustained any life threatening injurys (one guy was dismentaling a loaded SAW and shot off 100 plus rounds inside a building with his squad). It is a good read if you have the time.
 
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Both are useful because the enemy is going to try to hit with whatever you are not prepared for when you least expect it when possible. I trained with both and like both, used the M16 and M60 in Combat. If they make a 6 lb M60 with no control issues I'd be all in. I did like the fast on target of the M16 and both are a big advantage combined with quick kill over anything they had. Shooting faster and straighter is much better and I did not learn that on the Internet.
By both I am referring to the M14 and M16.
 
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BSW: a rifleman equipped with a 7.62 Nato with an optic (say 2-7x power) will be effective at ranges inside 200 meters. I know it isn't war, but I've hit targets while hunting under 35 yards with a fixed 4x scope. Or just mount a red dot to the side or on top of the scope (like in 3-gun competition). Just make sure you shoot it semi-auto.
 
briansmithwins said:
However, open source data state that the majority of infantry combat with small arms occur at ranges below 300m. The overwhelming majority occurs below 200m. This is in direct conflict with Major T. Ehrhart's paper: Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan: Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer.

So? Maj. Ehrhart has access to non-open source data that you don't, as well as personal connections in-country. You simply don't have the standing to contradict his assertions.

briansmithwins said:
My primary question concerns ranges of engagement. Major T. Ehrhart states 'Operations in Afghanistan frequently require United States ground forces to engage and destroy the enemy, often at ranges beyond 300 meters'.

He cites as his sources: Interview with MAJ (P) Vern Randall, National Police Zone G3 mentor, Afghanistan, August 31, 2009. MAJ Randall stated that “The average small arms engagement range here in RC-East is 500 meters” and 'After-action reviews and comments from returning non-commissioned officers and officers reveal that about fifty percent of engagements occur past 300 meters.'

How many people were interviewed or surveyed? What survey questions were asked. How representative were the locations and personnel surveyed? Was Major Randall's location typical?How large is Major Randal's location? Are there any other locations surveyed, or personnel besides Major Randal? What is the time frame of the survey? What is his sample size?

He cites just over five full pages of references. I think he has his points nailed pretty solidly.

The rest of your post goes on about data compiled in places other than Afghanistan, in terrain dissimilar to Afghanistan. This data is in direct conflict to Maj. Ehrhart's points about combat in Afghanistan, because Afghanistan is different than any conflict we have ever fought before.

You don't have much of a critique.

TexasPatriot.308 said:
gee....I wonder whhy the M14s are making a comeback. M16s and the puny .223 aint getting the job done. I am an old grunt from 40 years ago, the .223 is a piece of crap along with the M16, nnew M4s etc. not for todays warfare. .308 is an ass kicker.

I guess I'll only respond to this ridiculous post by saying gee, I wonder why you think the M14 is making a comeback. It isn't. Not even a little. Not even because you wish it was.
 
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Sergeant Sabre, it's his thesis and he has to present evidence to support it. His paper has two sources of range information and he's not specific on how much data he has, how it was collected, or if it was representative of Afghanistan as a whole.

Yes, Major Ehrhart has five pages of source cites. But his whole argument is built on the average range of small arm fights in Afghanistan being 2X or more what it has been for the whole of the 20th century.

That's a pretty extraordinary claim, and I don't see the evidence to back it up.

BSW
 
Old report. The Command already made a decision. A few M14's were refitted and shipped in. Since then, much of the combat has changed tactics, and IED/urban warfare is becoming predominant. We kick butt out in the open because:

1) We have crew served weapons. They don't. We can get longer reach on them.
2) We filled in the long range gap with the .308, snipers with .300 Win Mag, and SDM's.
3) We know what we're doing, they stand off because of it.

The long range war answer isn't to replace the M4 or gun up to a new cartridge. As said, when you do that, you change 95% of the guns out there for a 5% situation. It would mean going back to a full length battle rifle with less ammo and more recoil. That's exactly backwards to the historical trend to carry more ammo and have less recoil.

The whole point in moving to intermediate cartridge assault rifles was to put more bullets in the air, because more bullets flying means more hits on the enemy. The reports NOT quoted showed that more than 50 years ago - up to half of all casualties on the battlefield were a result of NON-aimed fire. The soldier wasn't even being aimed at - he just walked into one.

That trend in combat will result in something like the LSAT with no dead weight brass case, which means a 40% loss in weight per round, or a 40% increase in ammo carried. More ammo, more troops will fire it, more rounds in the air, more hits. The enemy loses the capacity to resist more quickly and is overcome.

Target shooter mentality is why these threads keep popping up, when it's been researched by multiple armies worldwide, many who have shared the results. Those that didn't still made decisions that became obvious - they went to the intermediate, long range sniping over 500m is a specialty situation, not a soldiers common task.

One in one hundred citizens have now served, down from one in TEN, the average shooter hasn't had any military training. There's a huge disconnect they don't understand.
 
From reading, it would seem that the power/range problem occurs most often with patrol-type small units operating outside the range of the support of crew-served weapons, and with a time problem for air support.

Damfino. Such patrols should maybe have a mix of their standard rifles and somethng like the M-14 or AR-10? Both would be effective "up close", and the 10s would certainly put hurt on enemy combatants at a distance.

Remember that the original tactical doctrine for the .223 was to control the immediate area to 200 meters while using the primary weapon--the radio--to call in artillery or air. That might work well in smaller territory, but in such wide-spread places like Afghanistan, it might create a distance/time problem.
 
From the research I've done from open sources, it would seem that either the Afghan theater is a extreme outlier when it comes to engagement ranges or Major T. Ehrhart's main premise is wrong.

Outlier? War itself is an outlier. You can't lose more soldiers because of a poor choice of cartridge and excuse it by saying it's an outlier.

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any open sources of studies done on the average range of firefights in Afghanistan. So I'm forced to consult older works that analyze WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.

This is your fundamental mistake, as others have pointed out. To be fair it was made by others in the past, that's how we got here. I imagine in the past nobody thought mountainous country would be worth fighting over.
 
Seems our buddies the British have noticed that they are being shot at from ranges that the 1950’s ideologues at ORO considered impossible:

Read Biting the Bullet by Nicholas Drummond

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/btb.pdf

Post WWII there was a big fight between the Marksman group and the volume of fire group. History shows that the volume of fire supporters “won”. The rest of us lost. The volume of fire types help promote new procurements of lightweight weapon systems firing lightweight rounds, with less training required. After McNamara forced all the marksman types out and promoted the new thinkers, why the end of history is upon us.

Apparently.

There is this unfortunate bit about Afghanis not playing according to the rules, but then they are a statistical aberration and this little war can be discounted as not representative of the true truth as stated by the ORO.
 
The truth, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle. First off, I think our experience in Vietnam pretty well disproved the Project SALVO claim that "more rounds in the air equals more hits." We gave everyone a small caliber, light recoiling, select fire rifle, and what we found was that when the SHTF, guys sprayed and prayed, and burned up all their ammo without getting any hits. 400,000 rounds per enemy killed in that "police action." That is what prompted the military to take away the full auto trigger groups and start issuing 3 round burst, and start teaching the guys only to shoot on semi auto, as they do now.

I'm sure there is some truth to that claim that more rounds fired equals more hits, but I think there is definitely a point of diminishing returns on the hits... and when taken to an extreme, like in VN, more rounds fired just equals more guys running out of ammo (and I'm sure it increases the malfunction rate of rifles). Maybe it would be a little more accurate to say "more controlled aimed/pointed fire equals more hits."

There are plenty of good reasons for a small caliber intermediate power round, but controllability under full auto isn't really one of them, since it is rarely ever used by soldiers other than machine gunners.

I'm certain that most engagements happen under 300m... hell, most probably happen under 150. But I also have no reason do doubt the claim that Afghanistan is different, and a much higher number of engagements happen out past 300 there. I would think most of these are area fire though, like a guy with a PK burning off a belt in the direction of a patrol, and then high tailing it, rather than precision aimed rifle fire. I do know that a lower percentage of our guys than ever before are being killed by small arms fire, so I'm not sure how big of a concern it really is compared to other things. Also, I bet they're counting mortar attacks in those statistics. Those would usually be past 300, and a lot of times that would mean the enemy isn't even in line of sight, so it wouldn't matter what rifle our guys are shooting or how well trained in marksmanship they are. So yes, I do think Maj. Ehrhart over-states the case a bit. I think the current system of supplementing squads with a Designated Marksman or two, with a 7.62mm rifle, is adequate. And even if everybody in the squad had a SDM rifle, the machine gunners would still do 90% of the killing in a small arms engagement, like they always have.

However, Ehrhart makes some very good points when it comes to marksmanship training and qualification. He recommends a more realistic qualification course that has a variety of cover, and requires the shooter to engage targets at various distances from improvised positions; rather than the current qual fired from standard static kneeling/prone/prone supported positions without having to use cover or anything. He also recommends more and better instruction in the fundamentals of marksmanship. That is something I definitely support, as a basis for all other skills to be taught. You may not ever need to hit a torso target at 500m, but it is nice to know that you can... and really, it takes the same amount of accuracy to hit a head-and-and-one-shoulder target at 300, or half a head peeking around cover at 100... which are a lot more likely to be encountered. And good fundamentals transfer over to every type of shooting. I do believe our soldiers would be more effective with rifle fire if they were better trained in the fundamentals. I say start em on the square range with basic field positions out to the effective distance of the rifle, and when good fundamentals are built, THEN move on to the more dynamic and close-quarters training.

Certainly I would never advocate going back to the pre-1950s training, which was pretty much just the National Match course... though that sort of training is an excellent basis for further, more real-life-oriented training.

I would also never advocate making every soldier carry a 7.62 NATO caliber rifle. But I do think that if we went with a standard service round that was just A LITTLE bit larger/heavier than 5.56, we could have vastly improved ballistics without adding hardly any more recoil. I think something like the .280 British would be just about ideal. That was the original chambering of the FAL. It was a much lighter, handier weapon, along the lines of the M-16, before they had to re-design it in 7.62x51.

zhyla said:
I imagine in the past nobody thought mountainous country would be worth fighting over.
There are some of us who still feel that way.
 
Remember that the original tactical doctrine for the .223 was to control the immediate area to 200 meters while using the primary weapon--the radio--to call in artillery or air. That might work well in smaller territory, but in such wide-spread places like Afghanistan, it might create a distance/time problem.


In the next decade or so expect to see the maturation of laser fusible shoulder launched grenade technology.

Once that happens, engaging first world infantry with small arms,even at extreme range, while in defilade is going to be suicidal.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM25_CDTE
 
BSW: a rifleman equipped with a 7.62 Nato with an optic (say 2-7x power) will be effective at ranges inside 200 meters. I know it isn't war, but I've hit targets while hunting under 35 yards with a fixed 4x scope.

Yes, but are you really arguing that a man with a full power rifle and a magnified optic will be as fast to engage the enemy or get multiple hits as one armed with a full auto, low recoil weapon with a 1X optic?

Like Major Ehrhart said:

'The desire for a weapon that is lightweight, fires a full power cartridge, and is capable of fully automatic fire, is an impossible goal. Designers can accommodate any two of the criteria, but not all three. The BAR weighed 20 pounds. The M14E2 weighed 11 pounds and was completely uncontrollable despite numerous modifications.'

Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan: Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer, p88
 
Stepping up to a larger cartridge will do nothing if the Soldier/Marine can't make the hit. The adoption of the ACOG has improved our long range rifle fire better than anything else. And we also now have the M855 is going the way of the Dodo for better rounds like the Mk318 and M855A1 that are more lethal at range. I have seen first hand on several occasions what the 5.56 will do to the enemy at 400 or so meters and I still feel its effective at that range.

Then you also have the fact that our squads are made up of more than just rifles. In the Army every fire team has at least one SAW and many times two. I know when I was a SAW gunner if I caught you out in the open within 1000 meters you were a dead man.
 
The whole point in moving to intermediate cartridge assault rifles was to put more bullets in the air, because more bullets flying means more hits on the enemy.
Not in my experience -- I had two tours in Viet Nam, first as an adviser to ARVN Infantry then as a US Infantry company commander.

More bullets flying means more noise, less time before you run out of ammo and things like that, but it doesn't mean more hits. I put a ban on full auto fire in my company and invested a lot of time training my men in combat firing.


The reports NOT quoted showed that more than 50 years ago - up to half of all casualties on the battlefield were a result of NON-aimed fire. The soldier wasn't even being aimed at - he just walked into one.
I would like to know what scientific tests were performed to determine if a hit was caused by an aimed or non-aimed shot?

My experience is that troops in Viet Nam did not see the enemy fully exposed very often, and did not know the proper techniques to engage a hidden enemy effectively. When that was remedied, the hit ratio went way up.
 
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