Talk me into/out of a Saiga 12

[bhhacker]

The title pretty much explains it all. I have seen review from 2003 and such but nothing recently. Has much changed? Who here has experience with one and what are their plusses and minuses.

 

[memphisjim]

dont let anyone tell you there is a breakin period i had one bought new and it functioned flawlessly from the get go with 12 round surefire mags
lets see disadvantage would be trying to shoot from prone position with high capacity mags
over all worlds best zombie gun

 

[berettashotgun]

Owning 2 of them, but purchased at the more realistic price of $325 - the 410's were $200 , I'd never buy one again until the price was correct.
It is the most overpriced ( by dollars and percent ) shotgun/HD weapon/Mall Ninja prop IMHO.
For the going rate of $500 ( delivered ) you get a decently functioning shotgun, that is the single ugliest shotgun for sale in this country.
I don't want to hear about mags ( $40+delivered), chrome lined, reliability,da.da.da
A 70-80's beretta 301,2,3 series has all that ( no mags ) and more at a fraction of the price.
BUT it is a beauty. AND SUPER reliable - for about 30 years of moderate ( including summer leagues ) usage.
Something the Saiga is not.
Let me ask you a question, how many shotguns do YOU own?
My Dad all ways used to tell me, the pretty girls like to dance as much as the ugly ones.
Nobody says you HAVE to start with the ugly ones FIRST.
A saiga is so homely as a shotgun
I know they work decently, but so does a Remington 1100 for the task.
I do agree they have a lot of upside, but - $500 PLUS mods to get to a equivalent Remington 7400 semiautomatic 308 is too mall ninja for my tastes.
But - It is you nickle. just my humble opinionated rant.

 

[TXHORNS]

Fun Fun Fun, but that wears off quick. Personally I'd rather have a 7.62x39 Saiga or a real shotgun.

 

[Girodin]

Like anything it really depends on what you want, and what you will do with it. What I always tell people about the Saiga is that it is not a great $500 shotgun but can be a pretty awesome $1K shotgun. What I mean is that to me it is a project. If you want to have something you can pull out of the box and it is good to go then I'd skip the S12. If you want a project and are ready to sink a fair amount of extra money into it then the results are very rewarding.

Here is a recent project of mine. In that thread I discuss what I see as some of the factory short comings and how I have addressed them
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=473230

BTW I don't think its ugly at all. Then again I'm fairly utilitarian and while I can appreciate something that looks nice I'm MUCH more interested in performance and my S12 offers that in spades. Its a gun not a fashion accessory.

Personally I'd rather have a 7.62x39 Saiga or a real shotgun.

I'd love to hear why the S12 is not a "real" shotgun.

Oh and the fun of my S12s still hasn't worn off, in fact since I can shoot it much cheaper than my x39 it gets more use.

One big question is the merits of a box mag gun over a tube mag gun. Their are trade offs either way. There are probably a dozen threads on here where people debate the points. Much of it is theoretical IMO. I also have zero desire for a rehash of the same trite arguments.

Saigas have grown dramatically in popularity for a reason. They also seem to be gaining popularity with open class 3 gunners

I wouldn't buy one unless I was committed to doing the following in terms of minimum mods/accessories needed to for the S12

Pistol grip conversion--ergos, balance, trigger, (even looks if you are the type that worries about such things)

Modded bolt or mag well--enhances the advantages of a box magazine in the thread I linked to I discuss this further

extra mags: if you have one mag you'd be better of with a tube gun

A lot of people also like to add better sights.


If you have dreams of a SBS the S12 is the hands down best SBS out there.

 

[orionhawk]

shot one at Knob Creek last October. trigger-slapped so hard I almost stopped after 2 shots, having paid for 20. it was full-auto, tho, so I don't know if that made it worse. just my 2 cents. I've seen several things online that claim to reduce the effect.

 

[bhhacker]

I have owned two shotguns. A '67 savage huge shotgun that was for birds, didnt even have a serial number, and a norinco model 372. I LOVED the 372. Ghost ring sights, reliable, and accurate as all getup at 50 yards plus the cost...I think i paid 180$ at a gun show. I am just looking for something thats the same and holds as much or more as that bad boy. The kick was nothing, it never jammed, and it was as reliable as i needed a shotgun to be. I just figured semi auto, reliable, and halfway accurate would be a great gun to shoot with. (i currently have no firearms, but am looking for a new toy to play with while im working in alaska.)

 

[chris in va]

Generally speaking, you don't buy a Saiga 12 and leave it alone. Most people start to convert it in some way...pistol grip, trigger group, mags etc etc. As-is the gun is somewhat in neutered form and you may not get complete satisfaction unless parts are ordered.

Think of it as a factory Ruger 10/22. Who really leaves them stock for very long?

Check out the Saiga-12.com site for more info/eye candy.

 

[TXHORNS]

I figured I would get ripped for my "real" shotgun comment. To me the S12 has little value as a hunting/clays gun so its more of a fun gun to screw around with, or hunt zombies if you are into that. A $500 price tag plus all the mods you WILL eventually do starts to add up to really nice "traditional" shotgun money. To each his own though, I have several expensive money pits (including a Saiga x39) in my safe that many people would love to bash on the internet.

For what its worth that Norinco is tough to find but I think its just an Ithica Model 37 replica right? Those are still available and pretty nice. But if you are just looking for a new toy to play with, including modifying, the S12 might be right down your alley.

 

[Girodin]

I figured I would get ripped for my "real" shotgun comment. To me the S12 has little value as a hunting/clays gun so its more of a fun gun to screw around with, or hunt zombies if you are into that.

I'm not trying to rip you rather just understand what your actual critique of the gun is. To imply it is not "real" is vauge enough that it doesn't really give any feed back on the weapon system at all. To say it is not a clay or trap or duck gun is correct. That is not its purpose. I'll use mine to shoot clays informally for fun but it is not my go to wingshooting game by any means. If that is the type of gun one is after I would be the first to tell them to look else where.

It is a good three gun shotgun so good in fact that a bone stock model will push you into open against full on race gun tube fed shotguns. I wonder why they are so intimidated by the S12 that it is automatically open class when I hear so many of those same tube fed fans talk about how the gun sucks. When I do three gun style shooting on a private range I have access too all of the shooters have thus far posted their best times using one of my S12s (and not mine with the mag well ever) even the guys who normally run pumps.

The S12 can be a very good fighting shotgun. I'm not sure that it genuinely offers much over tube fed guns for HD since some of its big advantages are never likely to be called upon in the vast majority of HD type scenarios. A good pump will take care of the hardware part of HD for much much less. The S12 can fill that role though provided one know how to run their gun (which is also true of a pump).

To say the S12 is not a real shotgun because it is not a wing shooting gun is like saying a Porsche 911 is not a real car because it cannot tow a trailer or seat 7 people or like saying a truck isn't a real automobile because it can't handle a curvy canyon the way a little sports car can. Things are made for different tasks, that shouldn't be revelation. An over under is a horribly inadequate three gun firearm (in fact I shot course at the above mentioned range with a double gun for fun and my best run was more than double the time with my saiga and also significantly slower than what I posted with the Mossberg 500 I was also shooting that day ) but I'd not posit that means its not a "real" gun nor would anyone think I was making an earth shatter critique of it. A $3K over under would be hosed by a $250 Mossberg at three gun doesn't mean it is not a great gun for someone who wants to shoot skeet.

 

[Gunfighter123]

Just A FEW of my SGs ---- at 3-Gun or Steel Knockdown Matches --- the Rem.,Ben., Win. guys CRY when they see me show up with a few 10 rd. mags and a loaded 20 rd. Drum !!!

 

[ChileRelleno]

1) Yep ugly as sin.
Since when does a weapon need to look pretty?
Then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

2)Original trigger sucks -due to the improvised linkage to make sporter/import version work. Tromix modified Tapco G2 FCG in converted/modified S12 is a good FCG, good trigger pull characteristics.

3) Vodka Specials - some come from factory with 2, 3 or 4 gas ports, obstructed/partially obstructed ports and may need work to function properly.
Free & friendly CS/warranty work performed in the USA is available.

4) Break In Period - some can use it, some don't need it. Usually involves a few hundred rounds of high brass rounds to smooth out any rough spots in the action.

5)Chrome lined chamber/barrel, Long lifespan, even when you procrastinate... I'll clean it later.

6) Box/drum mags provide anywhere from 2-20 rounds.
Current offerings are reasonably priced, good fit/function and plentiful.
Steel/double stack mags are soon to hit the market.
MD20 drums are only $120.

7) AK's reliability and ruggedness, clean it whenever the whim hits ya, or don't and it'll still fire every time you pull the trigger.
AK's safety lever, charging handle, rock-n-lock mags, ease of maintenance & etc.

8) All sorts of brakes/comps, flash hiders & chokes/choke mods available.

9) Like the AR, you can make it yours.
Easily converted/modified, and there are loads of after market parts/accessories... As bad as my AR, accessorizing can be never ending

10) I love the looks the snobs give when they see it, even better when I step up the wobbler for some fast flying clays.
Love how half the rifle range stops and stares, when I accurately dump/empty a MD20 drum into a target at 25 yards in less than 10 seconds.
Love shooting slugs at 50-75 yards and putting every single one into a 10" round target.

11) It can be and is, a great home/property defense & general purpose fighting shottie.
Properly setup, it is a good shottie for general purpose hunting, fish & game, I've seen happy smiling faces showing off braces of pheasant, duck, geese, rabbit, deer and all sorts of other critters.

12) Ugly? My eyes beholds beauty.

 

[winchester '97]

Dont let the people that talk down the saiga and then subtly try to steer you towards (insert more traditional brand here) turn you away. I honestly liked how the stock 19" barrel model handles, and i have seen people shoot clays with them and do rather well, mainly just to get the "evil black abomination bah gawd" crowd at the gun club stirred up, but what im trying to say is that just because its a tactical/hd weapon or something you see at 3 gun matches does not mean that you couldnt shoot clays with if you had to, not that this is a shotgun for clays but the capability is there. I was just suprised because it balanced so well, and i could actually see myself wingshooting with it with the full choke attached and possibly the rear sight removed. And lets face it, an AK type weapon will always be more reliable than most other types.