Taser abuse

[SIXTO]

"Regarding the topic, I was looking for public response... it is pretty clear some law enforcement people do not like the topic and will do anything to "spin-it" or avoid the realities"


Thats laughable Kola...

Post up your facts... I'm open to debate.

I can honestly say that I have tased and been tased. I know first hand what it is and isnt. What do you have?

 

[Coronach]

The Taser does not raise heart rate levels, but the excitment of the fight does. Add in cocaine or a number of other drugs, plus a life of drug abuse, yup, people are going to die.

The key point here being that, if the Taser was unavailable, the stimulus of the ensuing physical battle would be more than enough to elevate the heart rate and cause the death. Again, think of the ticking time bomb of the fat man with the heart condition on PCP.

Interestingly enough, once he died, what was the first thing everyone in Cincy was saying?

That the police were at fault becuase they just wrestled with him when they should have had a Taser so they could have used that on him.

No, I am not making this up.

The moral of the story is that when you are the police, if someone dies it is your fault, regardless of whether you:

Did too much
Didn't do enough
Used a taser
Didn't use a Taser
Addressed the threat
Didn't address the threat
Escalated
De-Escalated
Used enough officers
Didn't use enough officers
etc etc etc

Mike

PS This is not to saythat in-custody deaths are never the police's fault. I can think of two cases off the top of my head that clearly were...but neither of them involved the Dreaded Electrocution Device of Death.

 

[Coronach]

Coronach, To be honest I am pretty ticked off about what is happening in this country as of late..taser abuse just is another piece of the pie.

Regarding the topic, I was looking for public response... it is pretty clear some law enforcement people do not like the topic and will do anything to "spin-it" or avoid the realities.

As opposed to people who are ticked off at what is happening in this country of late, and want to hear what they want to hear, and are willing to credulously take anything and everything at face value as long as it is critical of the Taser, up to and including a "report" from Amnesty International and the opening positions of a plaintiff in a civil lawsuit, and who cap off their initial questions with a conclusion ("this is bull****")?

Listen, I'll agree that not every single use of the Taser is good, the same way that I'll agree that there are bad shootings and abuses of power by the police. This is why we have a justice system, and don't just take the police at their word 100% of the time. But you need to listen to how it is used, why it is used, when it is used, and what happens when it is used, in order to draw an informed conclusion. Just getting your talking points for Amnesty International and becoming Righteously Indignant about the Abuse (sic) isn't helping you or anyone else.

Mike

 

[kola]

Sixto, I presented some in my posts, did you read them? Do a search here, there are facts all over the place about taser abuse.

As Potato has mentioned this has all been discussed in other threads.

As I see it, goons are abusing the use of tasers..yes some of dying from it (directly or indirectly) but it is the ABUSE of the taser that I am not comfortable with.
Another person (on another thread) called it a "modern day whip". I tend to agree with him except that it has the potential to kill.

Kola

 

[tydephan]

I want to stick with the topic.

Admit it, taser abuse is rampant. Good cops are using it as a great tool. The goons are abusing it and directly or indirectly killing people.

Kola

This seems to be the crux of your despair. So...

I admit it. There are bad cops that misuse their tools. There are cops that drive fast when unnecessary. There are cops that don't live by the very laws they enforce. There are cops that may drive home drunk (off-duty or on).

LEO's are human, and thus, just as fallible as you.

What is your real beef? Tasers or Police?

 

[kola]

Coronach,

I have read, watched and personally witnessed how tasers are abused. One does not need a rocket science education to know between right and wrong.

Ty, you quoted:What is your real beef? Tasers or Police?

My beef? I have clearly stated it. Do not turn this discussion into Kola the cop-hater.

My beef is about the abuse of tasers and goon cops.

I support and respect good cops and I want them to have good tools to do their job which is to serve and protect.

Kola

 

[SIXTO]

I dont deny for a minute that they do get abused, same as any other tool. I am arguing the statement that they kill people. They do not.
I am also arguing that the use of a Taser might seem to be abuse to a person on the outside looking in.

 

[tydephan]

My beef? I have clearly stated it. Do not turn this discussion into Kola the cop-hater.

My beef is about the abuse of tasers and goon cops.

In my opinion, your words do your argument a disservice. Why even bring "cops" into the discussion? Why not simply engage in a conversation on the lethality of tasers, regardless of who is using them and for what purposes.

Just my opinion. I'll step out of the discussion.

 

[Brian Williams]

Kola, There have been Goon Cops since Noah and his son's made enough people to populate cities, They have used bamboo, leather, steel and lead, among other things to ride herd on unsuspecting and suspect for a long time.

So that said, lets take them out of the argument and just stay on the argument of the abuse of Tasers. Go with pure facts and discuss that, do not put in huge amounts of information and stories.

Lets look at these facts;

1. How many times has a Taser been effectively used to stop suspects from resisting.
2. How many times it has been ineffective
3. How many have died while a Taser has been used
4. How many times has the Taser been found to be the direct cause of death.






ANY MORE DISCUSSION ON GOON COPS WILL GET THIS THREAD CLOSED












ok

 

[kola]

no troll, just some facts and opinions.

just becuase you dislike the topic do not play the "troll card".

Make some attempt to comment on the topic other than crying troll.

Kola


just FYI: when someone (ANYBODY) points a gun or something that resembles a gun (ie taser etc) and IMO is threatening and/or endangering myself or my family, I have the legal right to defend myself. And I will exercise those rights to the fullest.


Potato, you were right.

 

[SIXTO]

Hey Kola, I am waiting on your facts to begin a friendly debate. You have posted stories, not facts.
How about posting the story that about the taser abuse you witnessed? We can talk about that if you'd like.

Dont take my position as hostile, its not.

Thinking about this, if I am going to get abused by a goon cop, I would rather it be a taser than a ASP or pr-24 a flashlight or a gun.

 

[kola]

sixto, the stories ARE factual. Videos ARE factual.
What do you want, the police reports?


from another thread and I must agree:

"My beef with Taser usage is that Tasers are being used more and more to punish people for perceived lack of adequate respect to LE than for any legitimate reason."

Kola

 

[tydephan]

"My beef with Taser usage is that Tasers are being used more and more to punish people for perceived lack of adequate respect to LE than for any legitimate reason."

The same thing can be said about pepper spray. Or an Asp. or any other non-lethal weapon. There again, we are back to the actors, not the act.

 

[kola]

I agree Ty, but the topic is tasers.


sixto, feel free to browse some factual information:

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=2208608

Kola

 

[tydephan]

I agree Ty, but the topic is tasers.

Fair enough. Good luck with your research.

 

[SIXTO]

Both articles you posted are sloppy examples of biased media at its best. They only rep. one side of the story, and it was written to get the reaction it got from you.

I want studies done by anyone reputable, court cases anything other than newspaper articles that are very one sided.

Taser and many police depts. have been to the high court many times. Surely if your concerns are legit, you can find court findings or scientific evidence that Tasers are killing people.

 

[kola]

sixto quote:"Both articles you posted are sloppy examples of biased media at its best. They only rep. one side of the story, and it was written to get the reaction it got from you."
----------------------------------

I am fully capable of excluding opinionated personal writings(media-whores)from the factual information.

Please disregard any opinionated comments and tell me what factual information was untrue..IOW: What do you think is incorrect or a lie?

Kola

 

[SIXTO]

The fact there is no factual information in these stories is enough. Its opinion and only one side of the true story.

Not to mention none of your posts have any mention of fact that Tasers are killing people.

 

[kola]

sixto,

It is becoming apparent you cannot discuss this rationally. According to you, I guess the Marine vet is still alive.
Anyway, there is enough info on other posts (pro and con) regarding taser abuse right here on the forum.

In all honesty, I am nothing more than gun-lover and a freedom fighter. Up to a few days ago I have heard very little about taser incidents. But after recently viewing the UCLA taser incident, then reading about the Marine soldiers death, I decided to start this topic. After reading the comments here AND after reading a vast majority of other posts on this forum I am blown away by the facts.

The situation is worse than I had imagined.

Kola

 

[tydephan]

Kola,

Do you believe in the practice of the force continuum? I.E. Do you see a need for "less than lethal" weaponry?

 

[SIXTO]

Lol, What do you I cant mean discuss this rationally?

I said the Marine was killed by a bullet, not a Taser.
I gave you links to independant studies involving Taser and its use
I gave you first hand knowledge of Tasers and how they work.
I asked you back up your statements.

You gave me stories copied and pasted from the internet.
You gave me comments posted by others on a message board.

I have not backed down, talked in circles, ignored your points or questions.

If you want to debate, great, I enjoy a good debate. But facts are not quotes from others found on message boards or liberal newpapers.
I will say again, I have no doubt that there is Taser abuse. There is ASP abuse, OC abuse, child abuse, spousal abuse... on and on and on.

What outcome do you want? Should we ban Tasers? Should we ban Police?
Police have shot innocent people far more than Tased, should we ban guns?
I'm not sure even what your point is, other than turning to lame insults when you can't back up a false argument.

 

[PotatoJudge]

As has been said before, the problem's not so much with the tasers, it's the inappropriate use of force in general- be it mace, club, gun, whatever. Lots of things contribute to this- the type of people that choose to go into LE, the psychological effects of being given that much power with relatively little oversight, the effects on the officers' decision making and view of the world given enough time around the criminal element, and a misunderstanding of their roles, powers, and the law.
The way to fix the "taser problem" is to adress these things. Implement programs to attract higher quality recruits and screen them better (I've gotten a glimpse or two of current "screening" and was not impressed). Give power of oversight to another branch of the state government (that is, restructure internal affairs; don't put them under federal control). Provide good pay and benefits, and improve the image of the policeman (cleaning up corruption and abuse would go a long way towards this). Make LEOs a highly respected position like firefighters, physicians, or professors. Fact is, LEOs are a cross section of our socitey. They shouldn't be. They should be better because we trust them with power over us.

It sounds like you guys essentially agree about some things. So how are you going to try to fix the problem?

 

[tydephan]

The way to fix the "taser problem" is to adress these things. Implement programs to attract higher quality recruits and screen them better (I've gotten a glimpse or two of current "screening" and was not impressed). Give power of oversight to another branch of the state government (that is, restructure internal affairs; don't put them under federal control). Provide good pay and benefits, and improve the image of the policeman (cleaning up corruption and abuse would go a long way towards this). Make LEOs a highly respected position like firefighters, physicians, or professors. Fact is, LEOs are a cross section of our socitey. They shouldn't be. They should be better because we trust them with power over us.

I'm all for this. Do I sign a petition? Make a donation? How do we correct the problem?

It stands to reason that as long as humans remain fallible, then this problem will exist. There will always be a devil on one shoulder, and an angel on the other. There will always be some people that listen to the wrong one. Be it politicians, oversight personnel, LEOs, etc.

It is a simple matter of human nature.

But I may be completely off-base. I'm tired and have a cold.

 

[SIXTO]

Good post potato...

Just clarify a few things. What are the "type" of people that get into law enforcement.
I'm not setting up an ambush, I know what you mean, others may not.

A lot does have to do with the locale. Some areas LE pays peanuts, and they get the quality they pay for. There are handfuls of good guys that get into it for good reasons, no matter the pay.

In my area, good LE jobs a rather tough to get. Pay is good (70k+) You are expected to be a pro.

There is tons of factors why abuse of power happens, and there is no one answer.

 

[kola]

Does anyone know what are the contraindications for taser use?

Kola