tydephan
Member
For those who don't know what it means. I had to look it up.
Taser abuse
- Thread starter kola
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For those who don't know what it means. I had to look it up.
PotatoJudge
Member
Sixto, I know what you meant, just couldn't fit it well into the other post. Some guys get in it for the power and freedom. Get a gun, drive fast, don't take none off nobody, all that. Two guys I went to high school with entered LE are like that. My high school hockey coach was our campus cop, and I know a guy about to finish academy, both really good people. It's not 50/50 of course, I won't even guess what the ratio actually is (much more in favor of good cops, just to be clear).
From a medical standpoint or a department policy standpoint?
Tydephan, I don't know what types of organizations do that sort of thing. Writing your local and state politicians is never a bad idea.
From a medical standpoint or a department policy standpoint?
Tydephan, I don't know what types of organizations do that sort of thing. Writing your local and state politicians is never a bad idea.
My apologies. My medical training and the use of that word is misleading.
What I wanted to ask is:
Are there are mandated policies regarding certain people that should not be tasered? such as people with heart disease, people on certain medications (blood thinners, insulin), illegal drugs, etc.
From reading some material the risk of death when combining the above factors with tasering has a definite causative link for killing.
Why not reduce the risk of taser injury and death by screening out high risk individuals?
Kola
What I wanted to ask is:
Are there are mandated policies regarding certain people that should not be tasered? such as people with heart disease, people on certain medications (blood thinners, insulin), illegal drugs, etc.
From reading some material the risk of death when combining the above factors with tasering has a definite causative link for killing.
Why not reduce the risk of taser injury and death by screening out high risk individuals?
Kola
Kola,
There is no general rule, but children, pregnant woman and the elderly are generally off limits.
You cant really ask about of medical questions before you use the Taser, so its a hard thing to do. There is a study out about tasers and pacemakers, its was interesting. I'll try and find it for you.
There is no general rule, but children, pregnant woman and the elderly are generally off limits.
You cant really ask about of medical questions before you use the Taser, so its a hard thing to do. There is a study out about tasers and pacemakers, its was interesting. I'll try and find it for you.
PotatoJudge
Member
I don't think heart conditions are a contraindication (it came up in the safety of tasers thread, with citations).
SIXTO got it, medical history is tough to get in these instances. Heck, it's tough to get in an office.
SIXTO got it, medical history is tough to get in these instances. Heck, it's tough to get in an office.
tydephan
Member
From reading much of the material provided in this thread, it would seem as though drug-users would be considered the highest risk individual.
I agree Ty. OTOH, there are many,many people on hypertensive (blood pressure) medications and many have heart disorders/abnomalities.
It seems to me that more research should be done on "taser side effects" and start presenting a list of contraindications for its use and then train LE and enforce it when violated. Right now almost everyone is game. (except prego moms and kids).
This taser stuff is being abused right now, no ifs ands or buts about it. And if it continues it will only become more "accepted" by the people using it.
Kola
It seems to me that more research should be done on "taser side effects" and start presenting a list of contraindications for its use and then train LE and enforce it when violated. Right now almost everyone is game. (except prego moms and kids).
This taser stuff is being abused right now, no ifs ands or buts about it. And if it continues it will only become more "accepted" by the people using it.
Kola
PotatoJudge
Member
I stole these off one of Jeff White's old posts.
Pacing and Clinical Electrophysiology (PACE) Journal cardiac safety study
http://www.taser.com/documents/PACE_Dr_McDaniel_Rpt.pdf
Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University – Mankato Report
http://www.taser.com/documents/Force...SER_Issues.pdf
New excited delirium and correlation to in custody death proximal to restraint
http://www.taser.com/documents/Sudden.pdf
Florida Gulf Coast University Study
http://www.taser.com/documents/Orang...tice_Study.pdf
U.S. Department of Defense Study (HECOE)
http://www.taser.com/documents/HECOE...ary_101804.pdf
British Columbia TASER Review
http://www.opcc.bc.ca/Reports/Reports Home Page.htm
U. K. DOMILL Medical Statement
http://www.taser.com/documents/UK_DO..._statement.pdf
Pacing and Clinical Electrophysiology (PACE) Journal cardiac safety study
http://www.taser.com/documents/PACE_Dr_McDaniel_Rpt.pdf
Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University – Mankato Report
http://www.taser.com/documents/Force...SER_Issues.pdf
New excited delirium and correlation to in custody death proximal to restraint
http://www.taser.com/documents/Sudden.pdf
Florida Gulf Coast University Study
http://www.taser.com/documents/Orang...tice_Study.pdf
U.S. Department of Defense Study (HECOE)
http://www.taser.com/documents/HECOE...ary_101804.pdf
British Columbia TASER Review
http://www.opcc.bc.ca/Reports/Reports Home Page.htm
U. K. DOMILL Medical Statement
http://www.taser.com/documents/UK_DO..._statement.pdf
Here is a police officer that lost his job because of poor judgment in taser use. I work closely(EMS) with some of the people invoved in this and this officer refused (in an unrelated case)to use this taser in a arrest where other officers asked him to "light up" the suspect(drug crazed).
http://www.grandrapids-mn.com/heraldreview/index.php?sect_rank=1&story_id=227953
Bovey officer improperly used Taser
Than Tibbetts
Herald-Review
Monday, March 19th, 2007 08:22:14 AM
A Bovey Police Department officer resigned in December after improperly deploying his Taser stun gun four times while on duty, according to the results of the city’s investigation.
Former Officer Jason Williams agreed to resign after an investigation determined he had used his Taser on two individuals — one a minor — in a “joking manner,” according to a report obtained under the state’s open records law.
Tasers are designed to work by shooting two barbed electrical probes into a person’s skin and then delivering a small electric current to cause pain and immobilize a person before an officer initiates a physical confrontation or is required to draw his or her firearm.
Bovey City Attorney Chad Sterle said it was a case of extremely bad judgment on the part of Williams
http://www.grandrapids-mn.com/heraldreview/index.php?sect_rank=1&story_id=227953
Bovey officer improperly used Taser
Than Tibbetts
Herald-Review
Monday, March 19th, 2007 08:22:14 AM
A Bovey Police Department officer resigned in December after improperly deploying his Taser stun gun four times while on duty, according to the results of the city’s investigation.
Former Officer Jason Williams agreed to resign after an investigation determined he had used his Taser on two individuals — one a minor — in a “joking manner,” according to a report obtained under the state’s open records law.
Tasers are designed to work by shooting two barbed electrical probes into a person’s skin and then delivering a small electric current to cause pain and immobilize a person before an officer initiates a physical confrontation or is required to draw his or her firearm.
Bovey City Attorney Chad Sterle said it was a case of extremely bad judgment on the part of Williams
Expecting mothers are not off limits due to direct harm from the Taser, but the fall afterwards. Most Taser related injury is due to the fall.
Taser says 7 is the youngest to be tased. IMHO, if you cant control a out of control 7 year old, you have no business being a cop. With that said, I guess there would be some situations that might leave you no choice.
Should people with medical conditions wear a "scarlet letter" to warn LEO's of their condition? What I'm getting at, is its impossible to do that. I know of no medical conditions that are a higher risk of death from a Taser.
Taser says 7 is the youngest to be tased. IMHO, if you cant control a out of control 7 year old, you have no business being a cop. With that said, I guess there would be some situations that might leave you no choice.
Should people with medical conditions wear a "scarlet letter" to warn LEO's of their condition? What I'm getting at, is its impossible to do that. I know of no medical conditions that are a higher risk of death from a Taser.
'Card
Member
Personally I prefer it when the police skip all this non-lethal nonsense and just shoot people.
If done effectively, it saves society the long-term expenses involved in their incarceration, and besides - prisons are badly over-crowded already.
If done effectively, it saves society the long-term expenses involved in their incarceration, and besides - prisons are badly over-crowded already.
The problem is that you have no clue what a person's medical history is when you encounter them on the street. There is, literally, no way to know, in 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the encounters. I was trained not to Taser:
1. An obviously pregnant woman
2. Small children
3. The elderly
4. Anyone doused in a flammable liquid
5. Anyone behind the wheel of a running motor vehicle
6. Anyone standing in water (drowning risk only, not "electrocution")
7. Anyone in a position to fall to their death (or serious harm)
For most of these, there are exceptions made for extenuating circumstances, but the policy is written in such a way that I better have a REALLY good reason.
The main danger of dying after exposure to the Taser seems to be cardiac problems (generic, but I'm not a MD). However, if the Taser was being used properly, it has been used in a situation where:
1. The victim would have otherwise been shot.
2. The victim would have been tackled and wrestled to the ground.
If a person has a heart condition that makes exposure to the Taser dangerous, they have a heart condition that would make exposure to a wrestling match just as dangerous. The Taser does not cause heart arrhythmia or even an elevated heart rate, but the adrenaline dump of experiencing 5 seconds of the worst pain of your life sure can. However, that same physiological response would be felt in a fight, with even more risk of serious physical injury.
The Taser absolutely reduces injury and saves lives, of both officers and suspects.
Mike
tydephan
Member
Kola,
I can offer this that I just thought of. It might or might not serve as useful information.
My brother is an LEO that was recently equipped with a Taser. He has told me a lot about it (most of which I failed to absorb). He was excited about the addition of the Taser (even though he had to be "hit" in order to carry it.) It has replaced OC on his belt.
The specific Taser that he uses records every single "firing" of the weapon. The Taser fires in 5 second intervals each time the trigger is pulled (even though there is a cut off, IIRC, that can terminate that 5 seconds early).
The unit records how many times the Taser is fired. The data can be downloaded to a computer via USB. He told me that there was all sorts of data that it recorded. He is a corporal and is responsible for reviewing Use of Force incident. He said this data is extremely helpful in determining exactly what happened. The weapon is siezed immediately upon the Use of Force incident so the data is not "corrupted." It is then downloaded by a supervisor and analyzed and compared to the officer's story.
I thought this was pretty cool and thought I would mention it.
I don't know if most of the units on the market are like this or not, but it is nice to know that this data is indeed recorded for supervisory analysis.
I can offer this that I just thought of. It might or might not serve as useful information.
My brother is an LEO that was recently equipped with a Taser. He has told me a lot about it (most of which I failed to absorb). He was excited about the addition of the Taser (even though he had to be "hit" in order to carry it.) It has replaced OC on his belt.
The specific Taser that he uses records every single "firing" of the weapon. The Taser fires in 5 second intervals each time the trigger is pulled (even though there is a cut off, IIRC, that can terminate that 5 seconds early).
The unit records how many times the Taser is fired. The data can be downloaded to a computer via USB. He told me that there was all sorts of data that it recorded. He is a corporal and is responsible for reviewing Use of Force incident. He said this data is extremely helpful in determining exactly what happened. The weapon is siezed immediately upon the Use of Force incident so the data is not "corrupted." It is then downloaded by a supervisor and analyzed and compared to the officer's story.
I thought this was pretty cool and thought I would mention it.
I don't know if most of the units on the market are like this or not, but it is nice to know that this data is indeed recorded for supervisory analysis.
All Tasers, at least the X26 models for LE, are set up that way. They record date and time, number of cycles, and method of application (drive stun or cartridge). Plus, the cartridges all have tiny little tags in them (looks like confetti) that identify what cartridge they are from. A cop might be able to falsify the circumstances under which the Taser was used, but there's no hiding the details of how it was used, or if it was.
Mike
Mike
Both the M and the X records each use. The X stores up to 1500 uses. The newest version (18) is compatable with the Taser Cam. It is a black and white video recorder than comes on when the unit is turned on. I suspect that these will become standard equipment soon enough.
I've come to the conclusion that the benefits of tasers are huge, and are enough to not ban them or stop issuing them to officers - but I do think there needs to be additional training to make sure people understand that just because it's less lethal, doesn't mean the criteria to use it are loose and liberal application is justified.
The "goon-cops" know that if they kill somebody and its unjustified, they're in serious trouble... but I think they see the taser as an easy means to end a confrontation, even if it's not serious enough to really warrant its usage.
In their defense, I wouldn't want their job, taking on unpredictable people every day. Some of them probably use the taser based on reading the individual wrongly and thinking they are more of a threat than they actually are. In their shoes, it's a matter of, if they under-react, they end up dead..... and if they over-react, they end up on the news.... so I'll give them credit that it's a crappy position to be in..... and imo it really just calls for more training. I can't imagine cops would be opposed to additional training.
Granted, there are some majorly in-the-wrong usages I've seen and read of. I know their force-continuum sometimes technically calls for it, but sometimes it's awfully extreme and is just more reason imo for that additional training.
The "goon-cops" know that if they kill somebody and its unjustified, they're in serious trouble... but I think they see the taser as an easy means to end a confrontation, even if it's not serious enough to really warrant its usage.
In their defense, I wouldn't want their job, taking on unpredictable people every day. Some of them probably use the taser based on reading the individual wrongly and thinking they are more of a threat than they actually are. In their shoes, it's a matter of, if they under-react, they end up dead..... and if they over-react, they end up on the news.... so I'll give them credit that it's a crappy position to be in..... and imo it really just calls for more training. I can't imagine cops would be opposed to additional training.
Granted, there are some majorly in-the-wrong usages I've seen and read of. I know their force-continuum sometimes technically calls for it, but sometimes it's awfully extreme and is just more reason imo for that additional training.
Drifting Fate
Member
The Taser may just be the worst thing to happen to police/community relations in the last twenty years and the toy is so dear to the hearts of cops that no one gets it.
The design has it's place, but there needs to be a serious step back from the "I now get to shoot everyone because it's not a real gun" mentality. Good men, men I've trained with and known for years, see no problem when other cops "shoot" a single, solitary woman who is arguing - but in no way using physical force - with them. It's enough to make my brains run out my ears and teach my family to be more afraid of the police than of the criminal. And that is a sad, sad thing to see in this country.
Really, the abuse of the tool is just the symptom of the deeper problem of the state believing a lack of compliance is justification for force. It's the us vs. them mentality run amok.
The design has it's place, but there needs to be a serious step back from the "I now get to shoot everyone because it's not a real gun" mentality. Good men, men I've trained with and known for years, see no problem when other cops "shoot" a single, solitary woman who is arguing - but in no way using physical force - with them. It's enough to make my brains run out my ears and teach my family to be more afraid of the police than of the criminal. And that is a sad, sad thing to see in this country.
Really, the abuse of the tool is just the symptom of the deeper problem of the state believing a lack of compliance is justification for force. It's the us vs. them mentality run amok.
Ok, as one of the Moderators of this forum I'm here to remind everyone that if you want to discuss the state of the nation, police and politics and any non-technical issues related to the use of tasers - take it to L&P.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Feel free to leave.
This forum is private property, therefore subject to the views and restrictions placed on it by the owner.
There are plenty of places where it's listed in great detail what will be allowed and what is not.
I assume you read all that before you started posting right?
In case you missed it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html
If in fact you have had posts edited I would guess they violated some of these rules.
This is one of the most fairly moderated forums you will find.
In case it's too hard to read the whole thing:
'Card
Member
[quote='Card]Personally I prefer it when the police skip all this non-lethal nonsense and just shoot people.[/quote]
Just wanted to mention that I'm sorry if my smart-assed comment bothered anybody. Wasn't my intention. I was trying to illustrate the absurdity in this thread with a healthy dose of sarcasm, but sarcasm doesn't always come across well in plaintext.
Cluebat for you, kola: Freedom of speech gives you the right to say whatever you want, but it doesn't give you the right to say it wherever you want. Forums are hosted on servers. Servers are hardware. Hardware is property. Therefore forums are the private property of whoever owns them. When you are allowed access to this particular private property (by registering) you agree to abide by the rules established by the owner. Don't like the rules of the property? Not a problem. There are a million other forums out there with rules that may better suit your tender sensibilities. Even better, we're all free to set up our own forums, on our own property, and establish whatever rules we want.
In effect, we are all guests here. Most of us try to act like it.
Just wanted to mention that I'm sorry if my smart-assed comment bothered anybody. Wasn't my intention. I was trying to illustrate the absurdity in this thread with a healthy dose of sarcasm, but sarcasm doesn't always come across well in plaintext.
Speaking of absurdity in the thread...kola said:
Cluebat for you, kola: Freedom of speech gives you the right to say whatever you want, but it doesn't give you the right to say it wherever you want. Forums are hosted on servers. Servers are hardware. Hardware is property. Therefore forums are the private property of whoever owns them. When you are allowed access to this particular private property (by registering) you agree to abide by the rules established by the owner. Don't like the rules of the property? Not a problem. There are a million other forums out there with rules that may better suit your tender sensibilities. Even better, we're all free to set up our own forums, on our own property, and establish whatever rules we want.
In effect, we are all guests here. Most of us try to act like it.
It seems a few of you do not like the truth. Too bad.
Thanks for giving YOUR interpetation of the Constitution. Pure bull****.
So now edit this and/or delete it...then like many of the other "taser abuse" threads, lock it... and if that doesn't suit a few of you.. ban me.
Better yet why not taze me.
Kola
Thanks for giving YOUR interpetation of the Constitution. Pure bull****.
So now edit this and/or delete it...then like many of the other "taser abuse" threads, lock it... and if that doesn't suit a few of you.. ban me.
Better yet why not taze me.
Kola
jack the toad
Member
Does Taser abuse exist? I'm sure it probably does. Is that reason to ban Taser use? No.
Taser is a good tool that has its place in the threat escalation continuem.
As to tasing an armed (knife or gun) offender, no way. Deadly force should be met with deadly force. Shoot the SOB and try to kill him.
As to any lesser threat, my main concern is for the officers and victims with the offender being way down the list.
My list of priorities (in order):
All officers go home at end of shift
Victims are unharmed
Offender goes to jail
Price of tea in China
Watch grass grow
Worry about sun shining tomorrow
Is the earth round
etc., etc., etc.
Offender is ok
Taser is a good tool that has its place in the threat escalation continuem.
As to tasing an armed (knife or gun) offender, no way. Deadly force should be met with deadly force. Shoot the SOB and try to kill him.
As to any lesser threat, my main concern is for the officers and victims with the offender being way down the list.
My list of priorities (in order):
All officers go home at end of shift
Victims are unharmed
Offender goes to jail
Price of tea in China
Watch grass grow
Worry about sun shining tomorrow
Is the earth round
etc., etc., etc.
Offender is ok
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