Taurus Judge

[drtworks]

Quick question:

I really like the looks of the Taurus Judge, a 5 shot revolver that can shoot .410 shotgun shells. I plan on getting one.

But how is it that sawed off shotguns are illegal, but a shotgun revolver with a 3" barrel is legal? How did they get around that?

Just wondering.

 

[Bill2e]

The PISTOL barrel is riffled.

 

[230RN]

The above-mentioned rifling, according to a recent American Rifleman review, is pretty shallow, so it doesn't upset the shot pattern too badly.

Unfortunately, I've seen individuals' reports on either THR or the old PDO of the bullets tumbling after a certain distance from the muzzle presumably because of this shallow rifling. For the ranges likely in Self-Defense shooting, this probably doesn't matter, but if I were to buy one, I would not expect to knock over tin cans past about 15 yards. Unfair, perhaps, but don't get your hopes up. The revolver is not meant for match shooting, but for self-defense ranges... as at Courtroom distances, perhaps.

A photograph of the cylinder and star* in the American Rifleman review showed that the star looked like it had been haggled out with a Dremel tool. This may have been a one-shot deal for the revolver provided to the American Rifleman for review, but it looked like the revolver had been worked over in this area... the magazine's staff did not comment on this aspect of their sample.

However, it was very obvious in the photograph.

--
* "Star" is probably not the correct nomenclature for this portion of the cylinder, but that's what I've always called it, right or wrong.

 

[Cowtown Cop]

I have an older model Taurus 38 scpl 2". The cylinder star on it looks like they chewed it out with thier teeth. It works fine it just looks ugly. On a positive note Taurus stands behind thier guns. I had to send it back to the factory because the timing went out and they fixed it free of charge and sent me new set of boot grips for it. I was not the original owner and had no proof of purchase. I was very pleased with the service and they fixed it up good as new.

 

[Flame Red]

My father-in-law just traded his only 357 revolver for one of those. He seems to like it.

 

[Rokyudai]

I could be way off base here...

Aren't the shots in a .410 shell situated in a plastic 'cup' that exits the barrel along with the shot? Could that protect the rifled twists?

A friend of mine sold his. He says it is probably a great Truck gun, but, had second thoughts after maneuvering it in his car from concealment. Probably just needed more practice but his choice nontheless.

 

[Colorado]

The Judge is back-ordered just about everywhere. I think Taurus is making a new Judge to chamber the 3" .410. I also am interested in it in the 3 1/2" barrel, light weight version.

 

[RyanM]

Those things are basically a novelty only. .45 LC is a fine caliber for plenty of purposes, but the extremely long cylinder will more than likely leech velocity and accuracy. I'm betting the tumbling problem is due to the excessive chamber the bullet has to go through before hitting rifling.

.410 shells from those things are pretty underpowered. .410 slugs, if you do the math, 1/5 ounce = 87.5 grains. Not good.

By my estimates (and my estimates for 12 gauge through a 6.5" barrel were just about spot on according to an article in Small Arms Test magazine, so I've got good confidence in my equations)...

1/2 ounce birdshot - 860 fps
3 pellets 000 buck - 900 fps
1/4 ounce slug - 1300 fps

 

[DPris]

The rifling has a huge effect on any shot charge you fire through the Judge & shot patterns spread immediately & drastically on exit. If the AR article said otherwise they were dead wrong.
Birdshot beyond 3 yards spreads out markedly with holes big enough to miss a rabbit. At 7 yards the pattern from one birdshot shell covered my entire 4X4-foot cardboard target backer, and not very densely at all.
Depending on the loads, it also leaves doughnut patterns with denser outer "rings" and markedly less dense cores.

Rifling gives the shot column a spin, and centrifugal force opens up the column. Saying "it doesn't upset the shot pattern too badly" could not be more wrong, at least in the one I tested.
Denis

 

[230RN]

Bryan M.

Those things are basically a novelty only. .45 LC is a fine caliber for plenty of purposes, but the extremely long cylinder will more than likely leech velocity and accuracy. I'm betting the tumbling problem is due to the excessive chamber the bullet has to go through before hitting rifling.

Yeah, I mentioned that the last time I commented on The Judge, but I think it was on the old packing dot org (PDO) site. It would appear that by the time the bullet hits the forcing cone, it's acquired enough velocity so that it can't grip the rifling enough to start spinning up that quickly, so it strips.

Requires too quick an acquisition of angular momentum, I guess.

I'm glad to see that someone agrees with my prior remarks on that.

I would not agree that it's only a novelty. I see it as a practical, close-range, no-legged, two-legged, and four-legged bit of powerful protection, if you recognize its limitations and the compromises involved.

Frankly, I run hot and cold on whether to buy one or not. I was really disappointed to look at that photo of the star in The American Rifleman, and now I'm even more disappointed when I read Cowtown Cop's remarks on his in Post # 4. Hm. From what he said ("The cylinder star on it looks like they chewed it out with their teeth"), no wonder the timing went out.

Maybe they've fixed that problem... I mean manufacturers have been precision fabricating those stars on revolvers for over 100 years, so I can't imagine why Taurus had or maybe still has a problem with them.

Can someone from Taurus perhaps enlighten me? Other manufacturers and reps have jumped in on boards to inform/help out the board's "citizens."

 

[RyanM]

I dunno, if you look at the performance of other guns with CCI shotshells, it becomes apparent that the Taurus Judge is long on concept, short on performance.

Frinstance, compare the Box o' Truth snakeshot tests in .38 SPL and .44 mag vs. the Judge.

Judge - http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
.38 and .44 - http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot30.htm

.38 SPL - 109 gr of #10 shot at 1128 fps, 16 hits out of 218 pellets (7.3%)
.44 mag - 140 gr of #10 shot at 1254 fps, 48 hits out of 280 pellets (17.1%)
.410 - 219 gr of #6 shot at 860 fps, looks like 14 hits out of 114 pellets, (12.3%)

Assuming the patterns remain the same size and uniformity, then for a given shot size, .44 mag has a lower recoil impulse, only slightly fewer pellets on target (140 gr of #6 shot, with 17.1% of them hitting, would give you 12-13 hits), and better velocity so that each of those pellets is more effective (even with 1-2 fewer pellets, you get almost double the energy on-target with .44 mag). You get the ability to use hot .44 SPL loads that're about on par with .45 LC, for defense against humans and feral dogs. And you can use .44 mag for bears, and hunting.

Better at all possible applications for which one might consider a Judge.

 

[DPris]

Ten or twelve years ago I tested every caliber of Speer shotshells then out, in over 20 different guns.
Two things I found of particular interest were that increasing velocity increases spread patterns noticeably (in line with the centrifugal force mentioned earlier), and quicker rifling twist did the same thing (and for the same reason).
Barrel length, gun brand (S&W vs Colt, in the .38s, for instance), caliber, and the size of the shot charge all achieve varying results. Comparing a Colt Python & Detective Special with comparable S&Ws showed a far tighter pattern with the Smith rifling in .38/.357 Speer shotshells.
In the Judge, different birdshot loads will pattern slightly different, with some creating a more uniform pattern density and others less, and none are anything but close-range propositions, but inside 10 feet, with the larger .410shot charge, the Judge is one of the best snake handguns you can find.
I say that from my own testing.
Denis

 

[lanternlad1]

The box o truth could only find 3 inch buckshot shells, but their gun had a 2.5 inch chamber, so they cut down a 3 inch shell. I'm betting that had something to do with the poor results they got. I'd like to see the 3" chamber with 3" factory load buckshot to see if it makes a difference. I agree with the findings of the slug load tho. The 96gr slug out of that short a barrel would not be as useful as a 45LC IMO. They tried to debunk a claim that "Some have mistakenly said, "Getting hit by a .410 slug is like getting shot with a .41 caliber pistol.

But a .41 Magnum lead bullet weighs approximately 210 grains, over twice the weight of this slug."

True, but most .410 loads are shot out of 18" or longer barrels, which will make all the difference. In that case, 410 comparing to 41 mag makes sense.

Its the shorter barrel which cripples the effectiveness of the 410 here. Luckily, you have the 45LC to fall back on. I think it'd be a great car gun for long road trips.

Cowtown: How long did you have to wait for the gun to get back? I've heard it takes a long time. My wife has a Taurus and we think it might need some adjusting.

 

[230RN]

DPris said, in reference to oneof my remarks,

Rifling gives the shot column a spin, and centrifugal force opens up the column. Saying "it doesn't upset the shot pattern too badly" could not be more wrong, at least in the one I tested.

I did not mean to imply that I thought "the shallow rifling would not upset the shot pattern too badly," but rather that that was apparently the philosphy of Taurus.

Anytime you spin that shot charge, you are going to get extra dispersal on exit from the barrel, usually in a doughnut pattern. As I see it, there's no way around that, and one simply has to recognize that shot shells of any kind out of a rifled barrel are strictly very short range propositions. Like maybe three or four feet, and that's that. As I said, you have to recognize the limitations.

Thompson-Center, I believe, provided a barrel for both .410 and .45 Colt for their interchangeable-barrel pistols with a screw-on adaptor for the shot shells which had straight rifling. This was in an attempt to stop the shot charge from spinning after going through the regular rifled portion of the barrel. The straight "rifling" supposedly stopped the spin of the shot charge to allow tighter patterns.


I think they also had a mild choke on the adaptor... with the lands cutting deeper toward the muzzle end of the adaptor.

This was in yet another attempt to get around the smoothbore-pistol legal problem.

I don't know offhand if they still market that variation on the theme.

There are times when I think it's unfortunate that .410s and .45 Colts have about the same dimensions on their rear ends so people wouldn't have to keep trying to make the concept of .410s in .45 Colt chambers work... somehow.

The real solution is to change that portion of the NFA which proscribes shotgun barrels of less than 18". And it would be for the children... protection against snakes while walking around the boonies with a couple of kids, doncha know.

 

[RyanM]

Thompson-Center, I believe, provided a barrel for both .410 and .45 Colt for their interchangeable-barrel pistols with a screw-on adaptor for the shot shells which had straight rifling. This was in an attempt to stop the shot charge from spinning after going through the regular rifled portion of the barrel. The straight "rifling" supposedly stopped the spin of the shot charge to allow tighter patterns.

Interesting, but I doubt it would work, given that the shot is encased in a plastic shot cup. Try spinning a cup full of water, until the water is spinning to. Then stop. The water'll keep spinning for awhile. Lead pellets are most likely much the same, at the time scales we're talking about.

 

[230RN]

RyanM said,

Interesting, but I doubt it would work, given that the shot is encased in a plastic shot cup.

I didn't say it would work, but Thompson-Center thought it would work better. I agree that any attempt to arrest the spin would tend to disrupt the shot charge in unpredictable ways. Again, I don't know offhand if they still market that "straight-rifled" shotshell adaptor.

Whether something "works" or not depends on the individual doing the testing and what it is tested on. For the range of my hand to my boot, almost any shot load, however assembled, and out of whatever tube it is pushed through, would "work," but for incoming geese at 30 yards, any shot charge out of any rifled barrel would leave something to be desired. Once again, you've got to recognize the limitations involved.

BTW, I edit my posts a lot, and I added some remarks and posted them before I saw your post, notably:

"The real solution is to change that portion of the NFA which proscribes shotgun barrels of less than 18". "

"A Man's got to know his limitations." --Inspector Harry Callahan, SFPD. Same with a gun... you've got to know its limitations.

 

[RyanM]

Yeah, I'm an edit-holic too.

Actually, though, the really real solution is to get rid of the BATFE altogether, and stop regulating booze, tobacco, and firearms altogether (other than the usual sales tax). Get rid of the DEA and IRS, too, while I'm dreaming.

Anyway, I don't know if people have to make the .45 LC/.410 thing work, though. The law only says that a smoothbore pistol designed or redesigned etc., is an AOW. It'd probably be just fine to make a pistol chambered exclusively for .410 slugs. Straight rifling, too, if that's legal.

Didn't occur to me before, but that's another real problem with those .45/.410 guns. The bore diameter is .451 the whole way down. A .410 should be, well, .410. That's quite a bit of overbore, which probably is not helping things much, especially slugs.

 

[230RN]

Actually, though, the really real solution is to get rid of the BATFE altogether, and stop regulating booze, tobacco, and firearms altogether (other than the usual sales tax). Get rid of the DEA and IRS, too, while I'm dreaming.

AGREE, AGREE, AGREE!

And I dream with thee.

I guess I'll quit posting (and editing) for a while and see if anyone has any other thoughts on the matter of shotshells in pistol-length barrels.

 

[DPris]

There's no good reason I can see to bother with soft undersized & underweight .410 slugs in the Judge. If you need to fire a single projectile, any decent .45 Colt bullet that's either a hardcast semi-wad or a properly designed jacketed round should provide better terminal ballistics.
Denis

 

[kanderson586]

all i know is if you go to taurus website they show a video of someone shooting at a shoot-n-c target through the passenger side of a car. at that distance it seems a shoot you could not screw up. if that had been a human head i'm pretty sure it would not seem underpowered.

 

[RyanM]

all i know is if you go to taurus website they show a video of someone shooting at a shoot-n-c target through the passenger side of a car. at that distance it seems a shoot you could not screw up. if that had been a human head i'm pretty sure it would not seem underpowered.

Thing is, a .44 mag shotshell out of a similar sized .44 would perform better. And you'd have an additional shot.

 

[hacksaw]

My buddy bought one, shot it, cylinder bound up after 2nd shot, not fond of the fit/finish...or generally the overall feel. Don't get me wrong, it was fun after we got the cylinder binding issue fixed. I just am not sold on it.

 

[tblt]

the judge is a waist of money buy a 44 mag instead also don't buy taurus

 

[230RN]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4256040#post4256040

I can't fathom why there's a question about using .410 slugs in The Judge. I don't believe that was the intent, if my mind-reading apparatus is working today.

After all, if you want to send a solid projectile downrange, the obvious choice would be to use the .45 Colt.

I think their intent was to use shot charges in the .410 for close-range "inaccurate" shooting, i.e., at snakes and the like. Again, if my mind-reading apparatus is working.

I also can't fathom why people are talking about shooting rabbits with it.

To drift just a little into the bloodthirsty/tactical portion of the spectrum, a load of shot to the face at close range will probably stop any deadly threat instantly.

But maybe only Judges in their Courtrooms can get away with saying something like that.

Or doing it.

 

[revjross]

I own a Judge. It's pattern stays close enough to do real damage up to 10 yards, after that it does begin to spread out probably too thin to stop someone. With the .45 LC it is incredibly accurate and easy to shoot. I have it under my seat in my Jeep or truck. First 2 shots are .410 (at 3 to 10 yards that is perfect), the next 3 are .45 LC. Fit and finish on the gun are just fine and my cylinder star is as good as my S&W. --- I think The Judge is great for the purpose it was made, fun to shoot, .410 really works close range, .45 LC is right on accurate for a longer shot, and I really like the fiber optic front sight. --- Hope this helps.