Taurus titanium cylinders in 44 mag

[KenC]

Just bought a Taurus 444 Ultralite with 2-1/4" barrel (and titanium cylinder) and am trying to get my arms around the erosion issue. Based on warnings in S&W and Taurus manuals, I need to avoid light bullets and magnum loads, apparently to avoid very hot gas at high pressure blasting over the cylinder face. The only provided quantitative info is for 357 magnum and the warning is to keep bullet weight above 120 grains.

1) Why do they not specify the limitation in terms of max pressure?

2) Why state a warning for 357M, and not 44M?

3) I want to shoot Remington 44 mag UMC 180 grain JSP (#L44MG7). Is there any way to tell if this will cause erosion?

 

[Dave T]

Consider, the 110g bullet in a 357M is considered "light weight" and they recommend bullets over 120g (I would have expected them to say 125g but it is Taurus after all). The 180g bullet is considered "light weight" in a 44M, ergo: I would think you should pick a projectile of at least 200g for the 44M. A 240g might be an even better choice.

Personally, and I've been a handgun shooter for over 50 years, any 44 Magnum ammunition fired in that gun would instantly convince me it was really a 44 Special and I would look for something like the Speer GD 200g 44 Spl round as a maximum carry load.

YMMV,
Dave

 

[KenC]

This gun is way nicer than any steel 44M to carry. It ought to be good for the nightstand (and range) with 200g bullets and 1,050 fps (i.e. 1/3 of the way from special to magnum). In bear country I would load it with factory 240 grain rounds and hope never to need it.

There was a nice Speer factory round, but it was discontinued: "Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition 44 Remington Magnum 200 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point" (#23971). Said to do 1075 fps out of a 4" barrel.

 

[KenC]

A little additional research turned up a more rational explanation: The time a bullet fills the gap is critical to erosion as well as flame cutting. The 115 gr 357 magnum bullets unblock the gap too soon and nasty stuff blasts out. Heavier bullets are longer and help avoid the problem. Hollow point and all copper should further help.

 

[robhof]

That problem was 1st found with the 357 Max, and the demise of the Ruger and DW adding A spare barrel. I've owned one (the Dan in my pic) since 1991 and have had a light frame cut, with thousands of rounds through it. I used 180gr and 200gr bullets and get great results, problem was many wanted to load with 125gr and get 2,000fps, and as stated above short gap time and bad things follow the bullet and do bad things to metal surfaces.

 

[JERRY]

too bad no one makes a "light special" meaning a light special loaded magnum round, like Speer use to make with their short bbl 44 mag load.

 

[243winxb]

My S&W has the same warning as Taurus. No lead bullets & dont scrub the cylinder.


TAURUS TOTAL TITANIUM AND ULTRALITE TITANIUM MODELS These special instructions are necessary because of the way the revolver is manufactured and assembled.
1. The revolver’s barrel has an internal stainless steel liner which is mounted in and surrounded by a titanium shroud. Because of this, the normal procedure of disassem-bling the barrel from the frame will either damage the frame and/or the barrel. Therefore, do not try to unscrew the barrel from the frame. In the event that service is required, return your revolver to our Customer Service Department.
2. Normal care and cleaning procedures can be used on Titanium revolvers but under no circumstances should you use any abrasive material to clean the front face of the cylinder, or any other part of the revolver, as the use of such an abrasive material can remove the finish on the cylinder, which is a protective layer, and this can greatly reduce the service life of the cylinder and the revolver.
3. These Taurus Titanium revolvers are designed to withstand the regular use of +P jacketed ammunition. However, we do not recommend that you utilize +P lead bullet ammunition as the typically light crimp on the lead bullets could cause some of them to unseat from the case, moving forward in the chamber, and possibly blocking the cylinder’s rotation. If you have any questions concerning the care, cleaning and use of your Taurus Titanium revolver, do not hesitate to contact Taurus Customer Service at (305)624-1115.

 

[AustinTX]

A little additional research turned up a more rational explanation: The time a bullet fills the gap is critical to erosion as well as flame cutting. The 115 gr 357 magnum bullets unblock the gap too soon and nasty stuff blasts out. Heavier bullets are longer and help avoid the problem. Hollow point and all copper should further help.

Yep. Titanium and its alloys are far more susceptible to gas erosion than the steel alloys used in firearms. Here's the cylinder face of a S&W Model 340 PD following a mere 34 rounds of 110-grain full-house .357 Magnum ammo, according to this article.



Titanium and titanium alloys are also very "notch sensitive" -- meaning that the presence of geometric discontinuities in the structure, including inhomogeneities in the surface (even simple scratches and other abrasions), results in dramatically increased stress concentrations and, thus, dramatically reduced fatigue life. A highly polished titanium rod can have a fatigue life an order of magnitude greater than a roughly finished one. Hence the warnings aimed at avoiding "notches" caused by abrasive treatment of the cylinder face.

Titanium is a weird metal. It has its advantages, most applicable where weight reduction is paramount, but it's far from the adamantine wonder metal that a lot of people think it is. Even if cost were no object in the design of a firearm (and weight reduction did not rank as an important goal), the best steel alloys would still be vastly preferable to any titanium alloy.

 

[reddog81]

200 grain doing 1050 should be fine. The loads listed in the OP are 180 grains and listed at 1,600 FPS. I'd guess those would cause issue in short order. I've shot hundreds of rounds through a S&W 325 PD and many thousands of rounds through a S&W 929 without any issues but neither of these guns shoots magnum rounds. Light bullets in magnum rounds use more powder and slower burning powder, this along with the fact that the short bullet isn't fully in the forcing cone before it leaves the cylinder throat is the recipes for cylinder face erosion, top strap erosion and the cause of cracked forcing cones in certain guns (older S&W model 19's).

With any hot rounds I'd shoot 1 round and then check for damage. if none is found shoot 3 rounds and check for damage, if none is found try a cylinder full and check for any damage. Certain rounds can cause a surprising amount of damage very quickly on titanium cylinders. I've never heard of a 44 Mag with a titanium cylinder. It seems like the perfect recipe for cylinder issues with the wrong ammo. Just google 357 magnum titanium damage and there's lots of info out there.

 

[243winxb]

Seen this on the online S&W revolver manual.

CAUTION: Do not use Magnum loads with bullet weights of less than 120 grains - This will reduce the possibility of premature erosion in titanium alloy cylinders.

Not in my 337pd 38 special directions that came with gun.

Interesting.

 

[wagonburner]

Shoot the heaviest bullets you can find and avoid lighter bullets like the plague. If you have your heart set on 180 gr swap out your cylinder with a steel/stainless steel cylinder.

 

[Dan-O]

Seen this on the online S&W revolver manual.
Not in my 337pd 38 special directions that came with gun.

Interesting.

Your gun is .38 special, not .357 magnum

 

[Targa]

I would have a coronary if my cylinder face looked like that at any point of my gun ownership let alone 34 rounds.

 

[JERRY]

Yep. Titanium and its alloys are far more susceptible to gas erosion than the steel alloys used in firearms. Here's the cylinder face of a S&W Model 340 PD following a mere 34 rounds of 110-grain full-house .357 Magnum ammo, according to this article.

View attachment 891890

Titanium and titanium alloys are also very "notch sensitive" -- meaning that the presence of geometric discontinuities in the structure, including inhomogeneities in the surface (even simple scratches and other abrasions), results in dramatically increased stress concentrations and, thus, dramatically reduced fatigue life. A highly polished titanium rod can have a fatigue life an order of magnitude greater than a roughly finished one. Hence the warnings aimed at avoiding "notches" caused by abrasive treatment of the cylinder face.

Titanium is a weird metal. It has its advantages, most applicable where weight reduction is paramount, but it's far from the adamantine wonder metal that a lot of people think it is. Even if cost were no object in the design of a firearm (and weight reduction did not rank as an important goal), the best steel alloys would still be vastly preferable to any titanium alloy.

I'd say that is a faulty cylinder or there would be absolute mania on the internet about this happening to all the other's guns out there.

 

[AustinTX]

I'd say that is a faulty cylinder or there would be absolute mania on the internet about this happening to all the other's guns out there.

It happens often enough to think otherwise -- especially as it happens across makes. See the additional photos below of severely eroded titanium cylinder faces on both S&W and Taurus models. Titanium is just extremely susceptible to gas erosion.

Some things likely limiting the frequency of online complaints: (1) fewer sales of the models with titanium cylinders; (2) some portion of owners actually following the warnings in the owner's manuals; (3) relatively less widespread use of .357 Mag. rounds with bullets weighing less than 120 grains; and (4) the embarrassment of affected owners who first run Google searches before posting and belatedly learn that they shouldn't have been firing 110-grain screamers through their guns, scouring the protective finish off the cylinder face with abrasive materials, and/or removing the protective finish through use of contraindicated solvents on the cylinder face.

 

[wagonburner]

I'd say that is a faulty cylinder or there would be absolute mania on the internet about this happening to all the other's guns out there.

Sadly that’s not a faulty cylinder, but what happens with titanium alloy cylinder shooting light ammo. Been there myself. Not nice.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Hpw much lighter than steel is the titanium cylinder? An ounce? Two? Three? I genuinely don't know, and I'm curious.

 

[JERRY]

Hpw much lighter than steel is the titanium cylinder? An ounce? Two? Three? I genuinely don't know, and I'm curious.

my 342PD Ti weights 10.9 Oz. but is .38spl so no high velicity stuff shot in it of course. however, my 642 weights 14.4 Oz. I guess the difference is the Titanium cylinder vs. the Stainless Steel cylinder.

 

[AustinTX]

Hpw much lighter than steel is the titanium cylinder? An ounce? Two? Three? I genuinely don't know, and I'm curious.

Titanium (4.506 g/cc) is roughly 57% as dense as the steel alloys commonly used in handguns (7.80–7.85 g/cc).

 

[FlSwampRat]

Just bought a Taurus 444 Ultralite with 2-1/4" barrel (and titanium cylinder) and am trying to get my arms around the erosion issue. Based on warnings in S&W and Taurus manuals, I need to avoid light bullets and magnum loads, apparently to avoid very hot gas at high pressure blasting over the cylinder face. The only provided quantitative info is for 357 magnum and the warning is to keep bullet weight above 120 grains.

1) Why do they not specify the limitation in terms of max pressure?

2) Why state a warning for 357M, and not 44M?

3) I want to shoot Remington 44 mag UMC 180 grain JSP (#L44MG7). Is there any way to tell if this will cause erosion?

I've always been a bit wary of guns that weight less than a full load of cartridges for said gun.

How does the gun shoot and is there a particular reason why you would want to fire light bullets out of it?

 

[RJM52]

WOW...have never seen that kind of damage on a cylinder face before...

I have two Taurus Trackers in .41 Magnum. Last time I checked the 4", which has been shot several hundred rounds, was fine... The 6" has only been shot maybe 50 rounds... Everything through the gun has been under 1100 fps handloads mostly hardcast lead or plated.

To me these are "specialty" guns that get carried when light weight is a premium...not range toys, plinkers or target pistols...

KenC...I used to shoot that .44 Magnum Short Barrel Load from a S&W 629 Mountain Gun...was just perfect. A friend also used it for a SD load in his 329 4"...sadly it is gone. If you reload or know someone that does you can duplicate that load with 10.0 grains of W-231 powder. All the data for using the 200 grain Gold Dot bullet in .44 Magnum is in the Speer #14 manual.

If you are planning on carrying the gun for PP I would look at the .44 Special rounds from Buffalo Bore, Underwood and the other specialty makers...

 

[KenC]

I've always been a bit wary of guns that weight less than a full load of cartridges for said gun.

How does the gun shoot and is there a particular reason why you would want to fire light bullets out of it?

Shoots great to my hand's pain limit of 18 rounds. With 240 grain rounds, the gun is to defend against bear attacks while fishing and the like. I was hoping with 180 grain, it would do double duty for home defense.

Now, for home defense, I will have to hand load my ammo; looking at 200 grain JSP, MV of around 1,000. 11 grains of BE-86 seems to do it.

44 Special is just not hot enough out of a 2" barrel. Besides it costs more than 44 mag.

 

[RJM52]

"Now, for home defense, I will have to hand load my ammo; looking at 200 grain JSP, MV of around 1,000. 11 grains of BE-86 seems to do it."

...the likelihood of a 200 grain SP expanding at 1000 fps is about zero...and will punch right through someone... The Speer 200 grain Gold Dot HP doesn't even open reliably in the .44 Special factory round... But having tested the Short Barrel load at 1080 every one expanded...

If you are reloading anyway...why not make up your own 240 grain hard cast SWC or LBT loads at 1100-1200 fps for bear...less recoil, more control and I doubt the bear will know the difference...

Bob