TDI report. Handgun III

Status
Not open for further replies.

bottom shelf

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
314
Location
Near Raleigh, NC
Mother Nature just couldn't hold out for one more day, could she? Day 1 was sunny, clear, and about 72 degrees. Day 2 was sunny, clear, and about 75 degrees. Today, the rain started during breakfast and is still coming down, at 8:00pm. It never completely stopped all day, and was pretty heavy at times. There were 20 students that stayed around for level III, and only 1 did not bring rain gear. The school took care of him.

We started the day shooting steel targets from 7 yards. They were torso size steels. It involved drawing, and taking up the slack during the press. First, singles, then double taps, triple taps, and finally, multiple targets. Shooting multiple targets in a row is a lot of fun. Never had an opportunity to try that before.

Then it was time for shooting on the move, like yesterday, but this time moving in a square pattern. To the front, then side, then backward. It's difficult to remember to keep moving during magazine changes. Your feet just wanna stop.

The next exercises were aimed at preparing for the live fire houses. The drills were switching hands, single hand shooting, both strong and weak side, and non-dominant eye shooting, which doesn't seem important until you're in the house. Also what they call "Gooseneck" shooting, which is shooting with the gun held in very close to you so that it doesn't enter a room before you do.

Next was coaching on how to clear the house. They call the main techniques "slicing the pie" and "the dropout". Footwork was critical, and the demonstrations were almost not believable, but we all got a chance to try it for ourselves, and it's very interesting how much of a hiding assailant you can see before becoming visible yourself.

Then to the "live fire house". I don't want to say too much about it, because it would ruin the experience for anyone thinking about attending the classes here, but I can tell you it was VERY stressful, and quite draining. The way it works is that one student clears the house with an instructor right there with him. When done, the next student clears the house, but the previous student follows along (with a second instructor to keep him safe), so there are actually 3 people BESIDES THE SHOOTER in the house. Yes, it's done with live ammunition. There are also no-shoot targets that you encounter along the way. You challenge them with voice commands. The instructor is the voice of anyone your challenging. One very interesting observation: There is no roof on the house, just walls, doors, furniture, etc., but as soon as you open that first door, you don't even notice the rain. Or whether your breathing, or even pissing yourself.

There were a few misc. drills today too. The two most interesting were "Furtive Movement" which is designed to give you experience dealing with people on the street that just seem like trouble. You know, the guy that wanders up to you saying stuff like "Hey, can I ask you something, why you backing away from me, I just wanna talk to you for a minute, you're not very friendly are you?" and so forth, all while trying to get uncomfortably close. Another one they called "The Elephant", but I don't know how it got that name. It's designed to give you experience sorting things out after you've been clocked upside the head. It works like this: All students guns are "roped" to make them safe, but with hammers back or strikers cocked, so there would be an audible click if the trigger was pressed. The drill was done with 5 student at a time, but could be any number. 4 make a semi-circle around the remaining 1, and are about 25 feet away. Instructor starts counting slowly, while the student in the middle bends over, points to a spot on the ground, and starts going around it, just like that forehead on the baseball bat thing. The instructor takes about 10 seconds the get to 3, and while this is going on, he points out 1 student to draw their gun and point it at the one in the middle.When the instructor reaches 3, the dizzy student stands up, has to locate the one with the gun, draw, and fire (click), while the other 4 are all advancing on him. Yes, we pointed real guns at each other and pulled the trigger. It's a difficult thing to bring yourself to do, but a roped gun cannot chamber a round.

Lastly, we were all timed in 2 drills. The first was a draw and fire on a steel target from 7 yards. The last was a draw and fire on 3 steel targets at 7 yards. My best time was .76 seconds for 1 target, and 1.88 seconds for 3.

My round count for today was 412. Total for 3 days was 1033.

Overall, I'm very satisfied with the training. I really feel like I really got my money's worth, and would do it again if given the chance. There is no comparison to the quality of this education vs. the CCW class I took in NC. The stuff taught here could actually work. And I couldn't say enough about the instructors. I think most of them are LEOs, and really have the skill to pass their expertise along. Lot's of people are skilled at doing, but fewer are skilled at training like these fellers are. It was very evident that the owner, John Benner, and all the instructors really care about the welfare of the students they train. You don't often find that.

About the training...
Easiest thing: trigger control
Hardest thing: pointing a real gun at somebody and pulling the trigger
Most stressful thing: Live Fire house (by far)
Least stressful thing: Relaxation exercise at end of day 2
Most valuable skill learned: Shooting on the move, and switching hands

I'm looking forward to levels IV and V. Maybe next Spring.
 
Last edited:
bottom shelf: I was really appreciative of the great details and explanations you posted for us at the end of each day. After reading day 1 I found myself sitting around and waiting for your review of the last two days. It sounds like you had a great time and really learned alot. I'm hoping that I might be able to afford to do this class next year! Thanks for the reviews, at least anyone who was considering this class will know kind of what to expect.
 
Thanks for the first hand reports, it makes me feel much more confident I made a good choice in signing up for a class. I took a one day defensive knife course from them last November so I have some feel for the quality, but it's good to hear particulars on a shooting course.
 
Yes, we pointed real guns at each other and pulled the trigger.

That's a real serious show stopper for me. I've heard of another moronic trainer doing dumb ass things like that. Anytime you violate the 4 safety rules, you are screwing with fire.

I cannot see what the training value of the exercise was beyond doing something "cool" and freaking stupid.

:banghead:
 
That's a real serious show stopper for me. I've heard of another moronic trainer doing dumb ass things like that. Anytime you violate the 4 safety rules, you are screwing with fire.

I cannot see what the training value of the exercise was beyond doing something "cool" and freaking stupid.

Moronic trainer? You gotta be kiddin' me! Moronic because he does something you wouldn't? Yes, the safety rules are important, but there are times you have to use your own head, and not rely on rules for everything. For instance, one rule says to treat every gun as if it were loaded. But is it possible to tell beyond the shadow of a doubt that the gun is definitely clear, and therefore unable to hurt anyone? Of course it is. Look in the chamber and the mag well. If you don't trust your eyes, reach in there with a pinky. Can a gun be made so that it cannot shoot when the trigger is pulled? Sure it can. Put a piece of rope through the barrel so a round won't fit in. Are you just afraid that if a person points a roped gun at someone in training, that they might point a gun at someone when it is not made safe? I'll let you know if I ever point a gun at someone I don't intend to shoot as a result of this training.

It had nothing to do with cool. The training value may not be very evident. The value was that the instructor can tell when you are shooting, and if you are shooting at the right target. Also, although this wasn't mentioned, it occurred to me that if you can't do it, I think you will likely not be able to shoot an attacker when you need to.

What's so freaking stupid about it anyhow? Did I forget to mention the ropes?
 
If you point a gun and pull the trigger at something you do not want to destroy, sooner or later you will put a bullet in that something.

There have been a truely stupendous amount of people shot by mistake when using a real gun to perform "Force on Force" training.

Safety is a habit. Once you start cutting corners, bad things happen.

If I felt that FoF training was to be accomplished, I would get something other than a live weapon to do this. I have been in FoF training using live weapons and, in my opinion, it was a bad idea then and nothings changed. Too easy these days to get the right equipment (paintball, simunitions, airsoft) to violate gun safety rules.
 
Sounds like there's even more to this class than I thought makes me wanna go if only I had the money right now.
 
I've been to level 1 and 2 before I just didnt have the money for 3 at the time and REALLY regret it
 
i am not even gonna reply to some of the ignorance here. some people just don't understand, don't train etc.

bottom shelf thanks for the aar's i and many others are very appreciative. great aars and very detailed.
 
I don't buy the if you can't dryfire at _________ (insert known non-threat) then you won't pull the trigger on a real badguy line.

As long as the weapons were made safe, checked multiple times & everyone was also made safe & checked (no live ammo, backup guns, etc.) I don't have a problem with that drill though I do think there are better ways of doing the same thing. An airsoft or Sims/UTM gun would allow you to find out if you made good hits.
 
Thats great that you enjoyed it, i went to their LR rifle course april 10th, and came away a bit wanting. (just not in depth enough for me, mostly it taught stuff i already knew) I would love to try their handgun courses though, they have a nice setup there.
 
An airsoft or Sims/UTM gun would allow you to find out if you made good hits.

I think I heard them say they do use airsoft in levels IV and V. I'm hoping to take them next Spring. If anyone else wants to plan that far ahead, I'd sure like to hear from you via PM. It'd be fun to meet other THR fellers there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top