hunttheevil
Member
Teacher saw the warning signs a year and a half ago. Police and University would not intervene.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html
Teacher asked for help
- Thread starter hunttheevil
- Start date
- Status
feedthehogs
Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
- Messages
- 1,801
Amen brother.
Having done some teaching at the college level I feel sorry for the teachers. You are VERY limited in what you can do in regards to the students and what you can say to anyone about the students.
The teachers must be going through an extremely bad time right now. It is not their job to stop this sort of abominationl. My limited understanding is that it is not uncommon to have students who worry teachers about what they "might do". The vast majority do nothing. You cannot stop someone from commiting a crime. All you can do is deter them by punishing people who do commit the crime.
NukemJim
The teachers must be going through an extremely bad time right now. It is not their job to stop this sort of abominationl. My limited understanding is that it is not uncommon to have students who worry teachers about what they "might do". The vast majority do nothing. You cannot stop someone from commiting a crime. All you can do is deter them by punishing people who do commit the crime.
NukemJim
budney
member
...said the politician during a press conference in which he got priceless air time, bankable against his next election...
--Len.
Sorry but the so called intervention to brainwash him is what led him to go shooting people. If you pay attention to what you can read in his plays, he was experiencing a horrible culture shock and an inabilitity to assimilate intot he american culture.
For soem reason he decided to write about the things that he was seeing all around him, his play mcbeef is a good example of what actually happens in families these days for example. His classmates and teachers were not able to comprehend his writing as they did not have the same cultura and moral value system background as he.
SO what they did was decide to intervene and brainwash him into another brainless moron without any self will or intelligence. And that made it worse for him as their constant harressment and torture made his life hell. Being pulled from class like that is discrimination on many different levels.
If a woman had written mcbeef for isntance, she would have been given a government grant, and a medal, and a tv show or a documentary for "exposing the violence that exists in our families".
SInce he was asian and male, they persecuted him. If you read the link and the student comments, you can tell he was singled out SOLELY for being asian. Now dont get me wrong, race does not automatically make you a killer, but in generalities, asians do seem to be able to control themselves a little bit better then the average american. SOmething to do about punishment for acting out in south korea i believe...
Contrary to others opinions posted already, I would have hung out with the kid. Just buying him a beer and helping him develop his ideas would have prevented anything from happening.
And before the persecution of me begins, i was treated the same way by my college dorm mates. Yeah, silent and self willed, and intelligent, and beign able to think for myself was a horrible affront to their world views that everyone do as they wanted...
For soem reason he decided to write about the things that he was seeing all around him, his play mcbeef is a good example of what actually happens in families these days for example. His classmates and teachers were not able to comprehend his writing as they did not have the same cultura and moral value system background as he.
SO what they did was decide to intervene and brainwash him into another brainless moron without any self will or intelligence. And that made it worse for him as their constant harressment and torture made his life hell. Being pulled from class like that is discrimination on many different levels.
If a woman had written mcbeef for isntance, she would have been given a government grant, and a medal, and a tv show or a documentary for "exposing the violence that exists in our families".
SInce he was asian and male, they persecuted him. If you read the link and the student comments, you can tell he was singled out SOLELY for being asian. Now dont get me wrong, race does not automatically make you a killer, but in generalities, asians do seem to be able to control themselves a little bit better then the average american. SOmething to do about punishment for acting out in south korea i believe...
Contrary to others opinions posted already, I would have hung out with the kid. Just buying him a beer and helping him develop his ideas would have prevented anything from happening.
And before the persecution of me begins, i was treated the same way by my college dorm mates. Yeah, silent and self willed, and intelligent, and beign able to think for myself was a horrible affront to their world views that everyone do as they wanted...
Wes Janson
Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,962
You know, there are lots of things that students in middle and high school write that lead to parent-teacher conferences, and administrative inspection, but I have to wonder about the circumstances with this kid. If those plays posted on AOL are authentic, then I have to seriously wonder why the teacher didn't go to the administration long before this happened. One would expect college courses to demand a certain degree of maturity, no matter how little, but I just can't see how a student could turn in works like those and still continue on in class.
budney
member
I wouldn't go quite that far, but I agree with you that forcible "intervention" is inappropriate. This guy went on a rampage, and previously wrote angry plays. How many millions of college kids wrote angry plays and didn't go on a killing rampage? These calls for intervention sound like wishful thinking that we can predict and avert every future tragedy. We can't. All we can do is try to be prepared (which, in this case, nobody was).
--Len.
MattC
Member
First of all, the plays are not terrible harbingers of doom. He has a fixation on rape and sexual degradation, but in both plays this is a negative that he does not endorse. In both, the protagonist John, 17 years old, is the one who suggests death to an authority figure who is damaging a youth. John is very angry, and is probably a self-caricature of the author. Assuming this, Cho imagines himself with friends, and imagines himself as deserving good things in his life--but he is helpless when these are taken from him. Casting himself as a 17 year old indicates a failure to emotionally mature past a state of depression and turmoil that began to bloom his senior in high school. I suspect that he did not want to attend a university and was forced into it by expectations from parents and educators. His contempt for those authority figures is the most prominent theme in both plays.
In the first play, his father dies and is replaced by a figure that he cannot respect: this is obviously a rendition of Hamlet, further signaled by the Shakespearian reference to McBeth (a play about death, as well). John is a Hamlet figure whose sadness is surpassed only by anger, and he dies for it.
In the second, the $5 million is stolen from him by a terrible, repressive authority--a teacher--and a technicality. The evil force is present, looming, stalking--it is unbeatable, and irresistible. In order to stop the evil invasion, the characters must either escape with the jackpot or kill the evil force.
As for the writing style itself, it suggests not only an immature writer, but a socially immature author. The interpersonal representations lack a human quality of depth--the play that took place in the author's mind was simple and direct, similar to how it was written. Exaggerated phrases and awkward sentence structures could indicate a struggle to express what is being thought, but the direct flow of the text indicates that the author was thinking 2-dimensionally about the characters. Furthermore, the lack of proof reading indicates a minimal interest in audience, which hints that he was writing for self expression and not seeking help. The types of mistakes made indicate that English is not his primary language, or not the language predominately spoken in his home. He wasn't crying for help by writing those plays; Cho was dragging through the expectations forced on him by powers that he felt he could not run from and could not protect himself from.
Besides that, about a quarter of any creative writing program at any given university in the state is depressed. This may be an overstatement, but it is not a joke. The freedom of imagination and an audience for it gives power to a person who feels utterly hopeless. For many, it is therapeutic. Calling those two plays macabre horrors is gross indulgence in hind-sight. Popular fiction is routinely published with worse imagery than anything hinted at in either of these plays--going back to McBeef, Shakespeare's works have more violence and macabre.
Now, with that said about the plays, I do not know about what else was happening, what his other writings were like, and how he handled his interactions with the other students. From the reports, it seems he did form some type of relationship with a girl. It was probably an unhealthy obsession that he developed into his sole reason to live. I wish he would have gone home and ate a bullet when the relationship failed rather than waiting until after shooting almost 50 people.
I have no sympathies for him, and I view it entirely as a personal choice he made. No teachers or counselors failed to prevent this. An individual made a terrible decision and, after he began, he was not stopped soon enough. Using these plays as indicators of what to watch out for from soon-to-be killers is ridiculous, however. It is irresponsible for people to interpret those two plays posted as typical works of fiction precursory to mass-murder.
Badgering him to see counselors would be, Bezoar argued, counter productive. If the teacher read those plays, she would see that his problem is with authority figures trying to force him into courses of action. It was not helpful, but nor did it cause him to go on a shooting spree. In the end, that was his own decision and no one else's fault.
In the first play, his father dies and is replaced by a figure that he cannot respect: this is obviously a rendition of Hamlet, further signaled by the Shakespearian reference to McBeth (a play about death, as well). John is a Hamlet figure whose sadness is surpassed only by anger, and he dies for it.
In the second, the $5 million is stolen from him by a terrible, repressive authority--a teacher--and a technicality. The evil force is present, looming, stalking--it is unbeatable, and irresistible. In order to stop the evil invasion, the characters must either escape with the jackpot or kill the evil force.
As for the writing style itself, it suggests not only an immature writer, but a socially immature author. The interpersonal representations lack a human quality of depth--the play that took place in the author's mind was simple and direct, similar to how it was written. Exaggerated phrases and awkward sentence structures could indicate a struggle to express what is being thought, but the direct flow of the text indicates that the author was thinking 2-dimensionally about the characters. Furthermore, the lack of proof reading indicates a minimal interest in audience, which hints that he was writing for self expression and not seeking help. The types of mistakes made indicate that English is not his primary language, or not the language predominately spoken in his home. He wasn't crying for help by writing those plays; Cho was dragging through the expectations forced on him by powers that he felt he could not run from and could not protect himself from.
Besides that, about a quarter of any creative writing program at any given university in the state is depressed. This may be an overstatement, but it is not a joke. The freedom of imagination and an audience for it gives power to a person who feels utterly hopeless. For many, it is therapeutic. Calling those two plays macabre horrors is gross indulgence in hind-sight. Popular fiction is routinely published with worse imagery than anything hinted at in either of these plays--going back to McBeef, Shakespeare's works have more violence and macabre.
Now, with that said about the plays, I do not know about what else was happening, what his other writings were like, and how he handled his interactions with the other students. From the reports, it seems he did form some type of relationship with a girl. It was probably an unhealthy obsession that he developed into his sole reason to live. I wish he would have gone home and ate a bullet when the relationship failed rather than waiting until after shooting almost 50 people.
I have no sympathies for him, and I view it entirely as a personal choice he made. No teachers or counselors failed to prevent this. An individual made a terrible decision and, after he began, he was not stopped soon enough. Using these plays as indicators of what to watch out for from soon-to-be killers is ridiculous, however. It is irresponsible for people to interpret those two plays posted as typical works of fiction precursory to mass-murder.
Badgering him to see counselors would be, Bezoar argued, counter productive. If the teacher read those plays, she would see that his problem is with authority figures trying to force him into courses of action. It was not helpful, but nor did it cause him to go on a shooting spree. In the end, that was his own decision and no one else's fault.
the so called intervention did indeed increase his problems. Sure its politcally incorrect to say that all the handpetting, "feel good" talk and hatred from his fellow students led him into a rather tragic sprial of depression and hate that he could only express by killing them all.
Its soo much easier to be politicaly correct and say he was a bad apple.
His plays are rough, better written then most screen plays I have read. His sentence structure is classic "foreign kid from non english speeking country". So what if his use of english isnt the greatest, i can show you millions of schools children in america who cant write as well as he did.
Its soo much easier to be politicaly correct and say he was a bad apple.
His plays are rough, better written then most screen plays I have read. His sentence structure is classic "foreign kid from non english speeking country". So what if his use of english isnt the greatest, i can show you millions of schools children in america who cant write as well as he did.
karz10
Member
I don't know about that. I watched the interviews with his two roomates last night, I saw most of it. Seems like they really tried to reach out to him and be very patient with him, until he started stalking one of their female friends and asked him to stop. Even then, they still tried to be nice to him and not cause him any trouble.
I think that interview was very telling. I can't remember it all, but they said in the whole year he never had a visitor, not a friend, not a relative. They never saw him w/ any other people, no guys, no girls. He would be in social situations and wouldn't say anything to anyone.
His roomates would introduce him to people, they'd try to start a conversation with him asking about where he's from, what he's studying, and he'd give one word/one sentence answers and not say another word. The one roomate basically had no verbal communication with him at all, despite efforts to engage him.
No disrespect, but I don't think buying him a beer and talking to him would have done anything to help him or stop this, I think he was already in trouble before he ever got to VT, and it was a matter of time before something bad happened. He was already doing a lot of weird stuff.
Although I'll admit I don't know the answer, I'm just saying it seems some did try to give him the benefit of the doubt, and he declined to participate, although I'm sure he didn't see it that way.
BTW, I have an Asian relative attending this school, and I don't think they've received any widespread discrimination based solely on being Asian... But then this person talks to others, doesn't take pictures of people under the desk, stalk people, call their roomates pretending to be someone named 'question mark' or write distrubing plays about sexual assault and killing people.
I don't necessarily read too much into one's writings, since some people are very creative and they may have motives for trying to write a disturbing piece for the shock value while not harboring those feelings to any great extent. However, if these writings were coming from somewhere deep within, then that tells me he may have been very hurt and disturbed. If he was involved with or witness to sexual assault or other abuse, that may have been the pilot light to his rage. It seems *something* might have happened to him previously, or he wouldn't have been so anti-social to begin with.
It makes you wonder, his sister is allegedly going to Princeton, although that doesn't mean anything across the board, but seemingly shows some ambition and aptitude. Not sure what happened to this guy, but he didn't seem happy. The question is, what can you do for someone like that? I understand trying to reach out to him, but it seems like some people did, and he wasn't interested by that time.
Seems like someone could have pressed charges against him for some of this stuff, which in turn may have prevented him from legally buying the firearms, or he could have been expelled for something along the way, but who knows what that would have done? He might have just got the guns illegally at that point, or had he been expelled, he could have still come back on campus as retaliation then, or gone postal somewhere else.
To me, the bottom line, regardless of what the school did, or the cops did, he could have still gotten out on bail, or plead probation/community service, and still done all of this stuff.
Therefore, my conclusion still remains, legal citizens should be allowed to carry and defend themselves as a last resort. Because, even if the powers that be did everything right, this still could have happened.
Regards,
Karz
RNB65
Member
People are so fixated on the gun control issue that everyone is ignoring that this is more of a indictment of our failed mental health system than anything else. Lots of people recognized that this kid was a ticking time bomb, but their attempts to do something about it just ran into brick wall after brick wall.
Pixel
Member
I think it does partly point up the (myriad) problems in the US's mental healthcare system in particular and health care in general, but that's not the whole issue.
I don't usually like to speak in cliches or catchphrases, but a lot of the problem is a failure to "see something, say something." We're all strongly conditioned not to point out people who are different, to bend over backward to be accommodating of everyone's personal quirks, issues and preferences, not to discuss it because it's rude and we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feeeeeeeeelings, would we? It's one thing to know a person who, say, won't eat round food or has to have the seams in their socks just straight or is too shy to talk to the opposite gender.
It's completely another to have a person be engaging in all this flagrantly OFF behavior like stalking and fire-setting and shrug him off as 'the weird guy'. We need to have a society where we're not too apathetic to confront the guy, too afraid or inhibited to get in his face and say "Your behavior is unacceptable and you will STOP. NOW." We should feel able to go to police, to go to university administrators or workplace management and not let up until they listen to us saying, "LOOK. This guy is STALKING. He is DANGEROUS. Investigate further. Take action."
And above all, we should be free to carry the means to protect ourselves if and when the guy goes nuts, ANYWHERE that may happen.
I don't usually like to speak in cliches or catchphrases, but a lot of the problem is a failure to "see something, say something." We're all strongly conditioned not to point out people who are different, to bend over backward to be accommodating of everyone's personal quirks, issues and preferences, not to discuss it because it's rude and we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feeeeeeeeelings, would we? It's one thing to know a person who, say, won't eat round food or has to have the seams in their socks just straight or is too shy to talk to the opposite gender.
It's completely another to have a person be engaging in all this flagrantly OFF behavior like stalking and fire-setting and shrug him off as 'the weird guy'. We need to have a society where we're not too apathetic to confront the guy, too afraid or inhibited to get in his face and say "Your behavior is unacceptable and you will STOP. NOW." We should feel able to go to police, to go to university administrators or workplace management and not let up until they listen to us saying, "LOOK. This guy is STALKING. He is DANGEROUS. Investigate further. Take action."
And above all, we should be free to carry the means to protect ourselves if and when the guy goes nuts, ANYWHERE that may happen.
Archer1945
Member
I believe I read that one girl who complained to the police about being stalked then refused to press charges. What good does it do to make a complaint if you're not going to follow through? I can somewhat understand in the instance of spousal abuse but not in a case such as this. A spouse usually has only one person looking out for his/her safety, a student is going to have friends who will be around most of the time.
At least one teacher and even the department head did try to get help for him but they could only do so much.
At least one teacher and even the department head did try to get help for him but they could only do so much.
TamThompson
Member
Bezoar said:
"And before the persecution of me begins, i was treated the same way by my college dorm mates. Yeah, silent and self willed, and intelligent, and beign able to think for myself was a horrible affront to their world views that everyone do as they wanted..."
Wasn't even thinking of persecuting you until you brought it up.
I will just simply note that YOU obvously didn't go on a shooting spree and kill 32 folks and then yourself, though...which proves that there are ways to deal with whatever this moron was going through (yes, I called him a moron. That's what I call all killers.)
"And before the persecution of me begins, i was treated the same way by my college dorm mates. Yeah, silent and self willed, and intelligent, and beign able to think for myself was a horrible affront to their world views that everyone do as they wanted..."
Wasn't even thinking of persecuting you until you brought it up.
I will just simply note that YOU obvously didn't go on a shooting spree and kill 32 folks and then yourself, though...which proves that there are ways to deal with whatever this moron was going through (yes, I called him a moron. That's what I call all killers.)
30 cal slob
Member
we need playwright control!
RonC
Member
At the university I work, I have suggested to certain students that they go to the counseling center to get help. I've even offered to walk a student to the center and introduce him to the staff as he was quite apprehensive about going over himself. If the student's problems are beyond the capacity of the people at the counseling center, then they will work with the parents and the student to get the help needed.
One of the prices we pay for freedom in this country is the inability to force a troubled person to get help. We can recognize the signs of a troubled kid, but we do not have the authority to make them get help if they haven't committed a crime. It's the same with the campus police. Unless the person has committed a crime or is definitively on the way to do so, they can't arrest him.
So, I don't blame the teachers, police, or people at the counseling center. Their hands are tied.
Ron
One of the prices we pay for freedom in this country is the inability to force a troubled person to get help. We can recognize the signs of a troubled kid, but we do not have the authority to make them get help if they haven't committed a crime. It's the same with the campus police. Unless the person has committed a crime or is definitively on the way to do so, they can't arrest him.
So, I don't blame the teachers, police, or people at the counseling center. Their hands are tied.
Ron
RNB65
Member
Just found this on today's Richmond Times Dispatch. Please note my earlier comment above.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
"Counselor"
Ever wonder why people will happily check themselves into a regular hospital for a surgical procedure, happily go see a doctor to resolve an infection, and yet resist like the dickens when someone suggests they get "counseling" from a psych professional?
I once wondered that. Then I did ten years as a volunteer in counseling, rehab, and education.
I watched as a young lady was persuaded to "go in for testing" because she had "anxieties" at work. She signed some "standard paperwork" for her evaluation. Oops. They "admitted" her. We saw her again six months later. Her anxiety had been replaced by apathy, sadness, and a furtive near-paranoia. Her memory sucked. When she tried to go back to her job, they wouldn't take her back, referring to her "record" -- and this record followed her thereafter.
She was only one of dozens.
Think about it. Which of you would voluntarily go "talk to" some flavor of shrink (or shrink-alike) about the emotional "problems" you're having. Come on, now, be honest, we all have some emotional thing that bothers us. You don't have anything to hide, do you?
Thanks, but no thanks. If I have something I can't get a handle on, and if I don't think I can hash it out with my spouse or one of my friends or family members, I'm gonna dig up a minister/vicar/priest -- even if he's not of my faith -- and go over it with him.
I've sat down with a rabbi before (I'm not Jewish at all) and talked things out with him. Do that same thing with a "mental health" professional? Not on your life.
You might be the exception. You might not have the instinctive, visceral recoil from the "white lab coat" crowd. Good luck with that.
The point is this: your average sane dude isn't going to check in with the thought doctors. Your average mostly-sane-but-somewhat-troubled dude isn't going to either. And why on earth would you believe that a certifiable nut-job would?
I don't trust them. Most people I know don't trust them. And the nut-job knows he mustn't trust them.
If you're rich and famous, an "analyist" may be a standard accessory.
For the average Joe, not quite.
If you're ever going to have a real chance of providing guidance for "troubled" folks, it's going to have to be through someone who's truly safe for them to talk to. It won't work if it's "part of the system." It's got to be off the grid.
You need a "man of the cloth" for this job. Someone whose code makes real trust possible. With real trust you can make progress. Without it you're going to fail.
Please deposit $0.02 in the slot provided.
Ever wonder why people will happily check themselves into a regular hospital for a surgical procedure, happily go see a doctor to resolve an infection, and yet resist like the dickens when someone suggests they get "counseling" from a psych professional?
I once wondered that. Then I did ten years as a volunteer in counseling, rehab, and education.
I watched as a young lady was persuaded to "go in for testing" because she had "anxieties" at work. She signed some "standard paperwork" for her evaluation. Oops. They "admitted" her. We saw her again six months later. Her anxiety had been replaced by apathy, sadness, and a furtive near-paranoia. Her memory sucked. When she tried to go back to her job, they wouldn't take her back, referring to her "record" -- and this record followed her thereafter.
She was only one of dozens.
Think about it. Which of you would voluntarily go "talk to" some flavor of shrink (or shrink-alike) about the emotional "problems" you're having. Come on, now, be honest, we all have some emotional thing that bothers us. You don't have anything to hide, do you?
Thanks, but no thanks. If I have something I can't get a handle on, and if I don't think I can hash it out with my spouse or one of my friends or family members, I'm gonna dig up a minister/vicar/priest -- even if he's not of my faith -- and go over it with him.
I've sat down with a rabbi before (I'm not Jewish at all) and talked things out with him. Do that same thing with a "mental health" professional? Not on your life.
You might be the exception. You might not have the instinctive, visceral recoil from the "white lab coat" crowd. Good luck with that.
The point is this: your average sane dude isn't going to check in with the thought doctors. Your average mostly-sane-but-somewhat-troubled dude isn't going to either. And why on earth would you believe that a certifiable nut-job would?
I don't trust them. Most people I know don't trust them. And the nut-job knows he mustn't trust them.
If you're rich and famous, an "analyist" may be a standard accessory.
For the average Joe, not quite.
If you're ever going to have a real chance of providing guidance for "troubled" folks, it's going to have to be through someone who's truly safe for them to talk to. It won't work if it's "part of the system." It's got to be off the grid.
You need a "man of the cloth" for this job. Someone whose code makes real trust possible. With real trust you can make progress. Without it you're going to fail.
Please deposit $0.02 in the slot provided.
true he did have problems, but consider something else.
Teachers like to explain any student they cannot control, understand, or brainwash as "mentally impaired". Normally they get the student sent off to a psychiatrist and put on lots of medications, traditionally ritalin.
Dont believe it? Lots of places allow TEACHERS to prescribe add/adhd dugs to their students as well as prescribe counseling, that the parents are FORCED to obery at risk of being brought up on child neglect charges...
Teachers like to explain any student they cannot control, understand, or brainwash as "mentally impaired". Normally they get the student sent off to a psychiatrist and put on lots of medications, traditionally ritalin.
Dont believe it? Lots of places allow TEACHERS to prescribe add/adhd dugs to their students as well as prescribe counseling, that the parents are FORCED to obery at risk of being brought up on child neglect charges...
- Status
