Teaching Cub Scouts to shoot, and dealing with cross-dominance

[Dave R]

A couple of Saturday’s ago I got to do my annual “Cub Scout Rangemaster” day. My wife runs Cub Day Camps for our district, so guess who gets to be rangemaster? Yup. Her spouse.

Ran 70+ scouts through 10 shots each at the BB gun range. Groups of 5 (I could only find 5 out of 12 rifles that shot to point-of-aim.) First the 4 rules, then how to operate the rifles, then how to align the sights.

No mishaps, no errors. Lots of “watch where you’re pointing that…” and “finger off the trigger till the sights are on the target.”

What really amazed me, though, what the number of cross-dominant* kids I ran across. In every group of 5, there was at least one cross-dominant kid. In one group, there were 3 of them!

One of my own kids is cross-dominant. Thanks to THR, I had read that the best technique for adapting to it is to teach the kid to shoot with the same hand as the dominant eye. Worked great for my kid. Took her a session or two to get used to it, But she’s a real marksman, now.

Didn’t work so hot in 10 shots. Most kids were real uncomfortable “switching” hands right off. Few of the cross-dominant kids shot well.

So how common is cross-dominance in the real world? Is this something that kids grow out of, as they grow older? Any suggestions on how to deal with it better on a short-term basis, so I can do better with the cross-dominant kids next year?

* Cross-dominance means dominant eye is different than dominant hand. i.e. shoot right-handed, but left-eye is dominant. Or vice versa.

 

[mrsig]

I am looking forward to some answers on this. I just found out that my oldest son (10) has cross-dominance.

- Sig

 

[ColinthePilot]

So how common is cross-dominance in the real world? Is this something that kids grow out of, as they grow older?

I can't speak scientifically, but I was ambidextrous when I was a kid, but I grew out of that. Now I'm (what I call) semi-dextrous. Some things are done left handed, some right handed. Luckily I'm a right handed shooter and right eye dominant. Things that require dexterity usually involve my left hand, such as writing, eating, loading magazines. Activities that require power with less precision (throwing a ball, batting, shooting) are done right handed.
Ok, I'm wierd.

BTW, As an Eagle Scout, I'm glad to hear the Scouts still allow shooting. They gave me my first shooting experience with those BB guns, and then those single-shot .22's. Long live the Boy Scouts.

 

[Dave R]

Yeah, I'm pretty happy that the Cubs do this. Two things are satisfying. First, that these 70 kids get a good exposure to the fun of shooting. Second, that some of these kids are GOOD SHOTS! They have shot before, and someone did a good job of teaching them.

I should be more clear on why cross-dominance is a problem for the kids. Imagine, you are down in prone position, you have the rifle snugged in to your shoulder, and you're looking down the barrel with the WRONG EYE. Your eye is 4-5 inches higher than the rear sight. No way you can get a sight picture.

mrsig, the best advice I read on THR is to teach the kid to use the same hand as the eye dominance. Its awkward at first, but its (apparently) easier than learning to use the "wrong" eye. That's what I did with my daughter, and irt worked great once she got used to it, which was after about 50 shots over 2 sessions.

 

[Ifishsum]

My second son (who's also in the Boy Scouts incidentally) is cross-dominant. When he was about 7 as I was teaching him to shoot a BB gun I realized he was trying to put his whole head on the other side of the stock so he could sight with his left eye. He also couldn't hit a darn thing. So I had him switch and shoot lefty and right away he started making that tin can bounce. The only downside is that I gotta find left handed rifles for him. At least his younger sis is left handed, so she can use them too.

I've no idea exactly how common it is, but common enough I guess.

 

[waverace]

I am cross dominant , didnt know it was called that though I shoot rifle using my non dominant eye , makes distant targets hard but thats what a scope is for , pistol I use my dominant eye and shift the pistol sideways in my grip , never had any problem even with the big hand cannons like the 500 smith or 45/70 pistol . I have tried shooting left handed but cant do it , it just feels too wierd .

 

[ColinthePilot]

The only downside is that I gotta find left handed rifles for him.

How big an issue is the right vs left handed weapon thing. I can see it for bolt guns, but being a righty shooter, I shot my friend's mom's left handed Remington 1100 12ga from a right handed position, and I barely noticed the shells whizzing by my face.

 

[everallm]

One fix we used to used with cadets at my old boarding school was to use an eye patch on the conflicting eye.

A. Forces them to switch to the correct side more naturally
B. Increases the Aaaaaaaah factor

 

[La Pistoletta]

I can't manage to figure out which eye is dominant for me. None of the methods I've read about make any sense.

 

[Zip7]

My son, 16, is a baseball player - he bats right and throws right handed. He will throw a football right handed, and shoot basketball right handed.

But, he is left eye dominant, and it feels perfectly natural to him to shoot left handed. First time he ever picked up a gun he put it to his left shoulder. He can shoot pretty well too.

He also writes left handed, but in elementary school he wrote with either hand.

He is the strangest case I've ever seen - when young he was as close to being truly ambidextrous as I've ever seen. For the sake of baseball I wish I would have taught him to bat left and throw right, but... too late now.

Since he's got older I have paid more attention to getting ambidextrous long guns too. Ruger # 1 is his deer rifle.

 

[M1911]

So how common is cross-dominance in the real world?

Not that common. I've had less than 1 out of 10 in my experience as an instructor.

Is this something that kids grow out of, as they grow older?

Possible.

Any suggestions on how to deal with it better on a short-term basis, so I can do better with the cross-dominant kids next year?

When shooting handguns, it is probably just as easy to stick with their dominant hand. When shooting rifles, use their non-dominant hand. There is no easy answer.

 

[Bullseye57]

I have found that cross eye dominance is at a much higher rate that most people know. Over the years of teaching marksmanship in both military and civilian shooting communities, I have found about 30% of shooters are cross eye dominant, but most have no idea that they suffer from this condition. I always include an eye dominance test before conducting any live firing. There are people who've been shooting for years that have no idea that their dominant eye is not on the strong side of their body. Here is a method I use to determine eye dominance (with illustrations) http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5482#5482

If you have difficulty with your young shooters, keep a roll of cellophane tape handy. You can apply a strip to their shooting (safety) glasses to cover the non-dominant eye's FOV. A thin strip of tape placed strategically on the lens will block a clear view of the sights and prevent double imaging for the shooter. The tape lets in ambient light but fogs the picture and this helps the shooter avoid double sight distraction. This technique also works well for shooters who cannot keep one eye closed, a problem that many young shooters face. The idea is to make a new shooter's experience a positive one and by eliminating the simple factors that cause poor performance, a shooter can get maximum enjoyment from their day at the range.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

 

[eflatminor]

I'm x eyed

Right handed, left eye dominate. This is ONLY an issue when I aim with rifles where it's a little harder to keep my left eye closed for long periods of time. It can lead to 'scope eye' or eye fatigue a bit quicker than for most. Not a big deal though.

Where I had to overcome the x eye hurdle is with pistols and shotguns. Here I learned to shoot with both eyes open. It takes a while but once you get it, I think it's much better than shooting with your weak hand. If you can use both eyes to focus in on the bird (clay pigeon) or use both eyes while running through an IPSC course, your seeing more than the guy closing one eye, regardless of which is dominate.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Here is a method I use to determine eye dominance (with illustrations) http://www.guntalk-online.com/forum/...hp?p=5482#5482

This link leads to a message saying:

"Critical Information

You have been banned from this forum.
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information."

 

[jamesjcarter]

eye domination

i was rifle range instructor at st. joseph, mo bsa camp for several years and worked with different age scouts.

eye domination wasn't usually established until age 11 to 12 (1st year scouts) and sometimes they hadn't firmly established hand coordination.

many younger scouts (webelo's and cubs) could just as easily shoot left or right hand or eye.

have tried to get information from physical education specialist and could get very little help. not much professional study i could find in the area. try to find a professional physical education spec. in your area (coaches are not much help)

occasionally (one out of 500) ran across a kid whose eyes were perfectly matched. neither was dominate. could shoot equally well left or right. i encouraged them to become baseball switch hitters. switch hitters get an extra bonus on their contracts.

 

[Bullseye57]

I apologize, that's the first time I've heard of anyone having problems with the link on this forum. So I'll reprint portions of it here to aid in this discussion.

Reprinted from Guntalk-Online.com

Well, those shots are all definitely to the left. Have you tested yourself for eye dominance and determined which is your dominant eye? Many folks think just because they're right-handed that their dominant eye is the right one, but this is not true for all shooters. About 30% are actually cross-eye dominant. For one reason or another their brains have swapped their dominant eye over to the stronger of the two eyes - not uncommon for people since we have binocular vision for depth perception.



By cupping your hands in this manner, you can keep both eyes open and use them to see a distant object through the small opening between the fingers. Then retract the hands back toward your face, all while keeping the distant object in clear view. Your hands should align with the dominant eye and move rearward toward that eye. That is your dominant eye.

Another method is to look at the object through the hands (as shown above) with both eyes open. Next alternately close one eye at a time. The eye that allows the object to be seen without moving the hands is the dominant one.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye

 

[Pat McCoy]

Over forty years of instructing new shooters I've found cross dominance runs about 15% of the total )but nearing 50% in women).

Learning to shoot with the dominante ey is preferred, and it only takes about a month for someone to build new habits. I tell them to put a yardstick near by, and every time they go past it they are to pick it up and""fire a shot" using the correct eye and correct placement.

One of our top shooters (and as high as sixth in the nation) was cross dominant.

I also suggest folks shoot from both sides occassionally (after they have a sound footing in the basics). Shooting "weak-handed" has proved to be a slump buster more than once.

 

[Rugerlvr]

I'm right handed and I'm pretty sure I'm left eye dominant. When I pick up a camera I put it to my left eye, and I naturally sight a handgun with my left eye. I've been training myself to use my right eye for pistol. I wonder how much better I could do if I just let my left do the aiming. With rifle, I just shoot right handed, and use my right eye anyway. I may give left handed a try when I'm at the range next and see if I do any better.

 

[ochmude]

I'm definitely cross-dominant (right hand, left eye), but I always shoot with my non-dominant eye. It took a little more focus initially, but shooting with my weak eye is definitely better for me than shooting with my weak hand, be it rifle or pistol. Oh, and for one of the annual qual ranges I shot, 37 of the 50 Marines shooting were cross-dominant, or at least thought they were after doing the little hand test. So I personally believe that cross-dominance is WAY more common than people think.

 

[hksw]

I had the same problem recently when I took my youngest niece shooting for the first time a couple of weeks ago. She is 7 yo, writes left handed like her mother/my sister but does a lot of physical activities right handed. She is also left eye dom. It was evident when her shots were way off and I noticed her squinting her right eye during aiming instructions. Tried a few things including switching to heft hand, having here close her left eye, covering the left lens of the safety glasses by holding up a piece of paper. Problems were she really prefered to shoot right handed judging by her actions when trying to shoot left handed, she has a harder time keeping her left eye closed and right eye open (I don't think she has full control yet on winking), and she kept squinting her right eye even when the left eye was covered. I'll work with her some more once the CMP games at Camp Perry are over which is taking up my time and will try a few other things like taping over (instead of just holding a piece of paper) her left lens or use an eye shade of some type and maybe work a little more on shooting left handed.

 

[Dave R]

Bullseye, thanks for posting that test. That's great.

Rugerlvr--yup, putting the camera to you left eye but shooting right-handed means you are cross dominant.

So, question for the group. When I do this next year, do you think I'll have better results if I:

1. Bring tape to cover the lens of shooting glasses on the dominant eye (Bullseye57 recommends this)

2. Do a quick transition to shooting weak-handed.

I'll tell ya, I tried #2 this past session, and it rarely worked, given the short time I was with the boys. It may be the better long-term solution, but it didn't work well in the short term.

So, the eye patch thing may be better for a good experience in this one event, but may not be a good long-term fix.

Thoughts? Especially from instructors who have dealt with this in the past, like Pat McCoy and jamesjcarter and Bullseye57?

 

[Steve N]

I teach archery, and have found that 10%-20% of the new archers are cross-eye dominant. They have a tough time starting out with left hand bows when they are used to doing everything with their right. Sometimes we just put an eye patch on their dominant eye, if they aren't getting the hang of using the opposite hand to shoot.

Bulls-eye's method is how we determine eye dominance. Instead of having the student look at an object, we have them look the coach in the face thru their hands. As they are pulling back, you can see which eye is going to be dominant. It is interesting that some have almost no dominance, and we have them repeat the test 2-3 more times to be sure.

 

[La Pistoletta]

"Then retract the hands back toward your face, all while keeping the distant object in clear view. Your hands should align with the dominant eye and move rearward toward that eye. That is your dominant eye."

This is what I have trouble with. My hands "align" with whatever "copy" I choose to look at, or they just go straight to my nose.

 

[doc2rn]

I was a lefty until Kindergarden and that danged chalkboard pointer. A few whacks on the back of my hands fixed that and I became ambidextrous.
I dont recommend this approach now-a-days!
What is odd is I shoot better righty so it worked to my benefit.

 

[Bullseye57]

Using a strip of tape over the dominant eye lens is the simplest method, especially for large groups like the scouts. You don't have to cover the whole lens, just place a small strip over the portion of the lens that would pick up the sight blade. If you fold over a tiny corner prior to attaching the tape, it can be easily removed after the shooter finishes up their qual.

There are two methods for checking eye dominance. I found that some folks would automatically go to their strong side eye using the hand pull back method regardless if that was the dominant eye or not. That is why I have the second method where the person keeps their arms extended and just alternately closes one eye then the other. The eye that sees the distant image is the one that's dominant.

Using an small object that is far off, is the best method for the hand dominance test. Sometimes an object up close doesn't work too well because the tester opens their hands too wide and both eyes can see the image. Children often cannot close one eye too well and having an adult use their hand to block the view of each eye, one at a time, will assist them better. For that same reason, the Scotch tape method helps them have a better shooting experience.

Some people have their eye dominance change over time. Most of the people I encountered had this happen. As time goes on your brain can switch over to the eye with the stronger vision. So it pays to occasionally check to see if you still have the same eye dominance, especially if you notice a major change in your sight settings.

Long term - I personally use the tape method on my shooting glasses for Highpower rifle competition. I have circular portion of the lower left lens untaped to view into my spotting scope. That way I don't get sight fatigued, or sight burn-in. Over the long shooting day one can experience painful facial strain by closing one eye and trying to keep it closed throughout a string. Once my string is completed, I take off the shooting glasses and put on an untaped set of safety glasses.

BTW, I'm a double Distinguished marksmanship competitor. Over the years I've learned a trick or two. Use this if method you choose, or not, free will is a wonderful thing.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye