Technical Question

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cuda64

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What barrel length would gun cooler in high volumes of fire out of an AR15 5.56 platform.
Would 20" because it has more material to dissipate the heat?
Would it be 14.5 because the round has less velocity and burning less gases ?
Also rails ? Would big fatties let more airflow, or would slim absorb heat and dissipate heat ?
 
Any length using a midlength gas system, as I understand. M4's with carbine length run hotter than M16 w/ rifle length.
 
What barrel length would gun cooler in high volumes of fire out of an AR15 5.56 platform.
Would 20" because it has more material to dissipate the heat?
Would it be 14.5 because the round has less velocity and burning less gases ?
Also rails ? Would big fatties let more airflow, or would slim absorb heat and dissipate heat ?
rifle barrel coolers are basically for looks as you see my 308 saiga doesn't have one on original plastic ..
https://rifleshooter.com/2017/08/do-rifle-barrel-coolers-work/
If you take a look at the average rate of change for the barrel with the cooler versus without, there seems to be a slight benefit (-.2 degrees F/minute) to using one. I was hoping for more. To answer my opening question, yes, they appear to work a little.
barrel-cooler-review-table-v2.jpg
 
I wanna AR with tubular handguard like the Lewis gun. Longer than the barrel such that muzzle blast sucks cool air in at the breech and out at the muzzle. No slots or holes along the sides, of course. And heat sink/fins on barrel. Woo, woo.
i think those modern military rails are butt ugly on a rifle
 
Your assumptions about a longer barrel taking more heat than a shorter barrel are semi-science, CLOSE, but ignoring a much heavier contribution to the barrel heat.

The chamber area of a 14.5" and a 20" barrel will take just as much heat as the other - the extra 5.5" at the end only sees a small relative percentage of the actual combustion, and at a much lower flame temperature, because of the lower pressure at that section of the bore. HOWEVER, that extra 5.5" of barrel does act as a relatively massive heat sink... The longer barrel will heat up slower, and cool down faster.

The transfer of heat from metal to air is much more difficult than from metal to metal. That should answer your questions for yourself.

Thin rails hold heat on the barrel more than fat rails. Fat tubes allow sufficiently greater air mass flow. The thermal transfer to the rail is really undesireable, you're talking about going steel to air, then air to aluminum (or carbon) - this is a wasteful path - it is much better to transfer to the air, then move the air away, as the transfer between air and metal isn't as efficient as metal to metal (heat sink), and the mass of air in our proximate environment is MUCH greater than the mass of the handguard, meaning the relative gross heat capacity (not specific heat capacity, but rather total capacity for storing heat) of the air is much, much greater than the small mass of aluminum, so if you've done the hard work of transferring to air, just remove the hot air, aka, airflow...

If the air isn't moving under the rail, then the rail has to act as an air to air exchanger, which is REALLY inefficient since heat has to transfer from combustion gas to the barrel steel, then back to air, then to the rail, then back to air OUTSIDE the rail... Two extra transfers between air and steel. Air under the rail does have a disadvantage of wanting to stagnate - because it's heating up, it's expanding, so even if you have hot air "pumping" out of the ports, you may not get any cooling air flowing INTO the rail... A net outflow of hot air doesn't necessarily mean heat is being efficiently drawn away from the barrel - cool air has to be moving INTO the rail too.

Longer, fatter barrels stay cooler longer than smaller diameter, shorter barrels. The maximum pressure and temperature are happening within a couple inches of the chamber, so naturally, the greatest heat load is happening here. The transfer of heat down the length of the barrel is MUCH faster than the transfer from metal to air, as mentioned above, so effectively, the length of the barrel acts as a heat sink for the chamber area. Similarly, the extra diameter of the barrel acts as a heat sink to draw heat away from the bore - THEN when it's drawn to the surface, where the BTU's are forced to make the jump to a new media (air), the larger the diameter barrel will have more surface area through which to eject that heat. With the peak temperature happening near the chamber, and of course, happening IN the bore, the more direct contact metal available to pull heat radially and then axially away from that area, the cooler the barrel will run.
 
@FL-NC is right to say the midlength carbines will run SLIGHTLY cooler than carbine length. This is really a cooler ACTION, rather than a cooler barrel, however. The carbine length carbine barrels will pump a larger volume (longer impulse) of higher pressure combusting plasma into the action. The action and BCG act a bit like a heat sink for the barrel, so if the action runs hotter, it won't be as effective at drawing heat from the barrel, so more heat will have to run forward instead of rearward into the action, so the barrel would be slightly hotter too, not productively, but rather, from loss of heat sink.
 
Ythe extra 5.5" at the end only sees a small relative percentage of the actual combustion, and at a much lower flame temperature, because of the lower pressure at that section of the bore. HOWEVER, that extra 5.5" of barrel does act as a relatively massive heat sink... The longer barrel will heat up slower, and cool down faster.
yeah but us long barrel type mine 22 inches on my saiga shoot old man like :feet: slower and tend to have scopes on ours;)
Thin rails hold heat on the barrel more than fat rails. Fat tubes allow sufficiently greater air mass flow.
what about this one on my sks yugo i put on this summer img-sks_gas_tube_cover.gif ? the tube is thicker then
original
 
That SKS piston tube is thicker to create a greater heat sink AND offer greater dissipation through increased surface area. I'd be interested to mic how thick it is, and see whether it would receive fluting to further increase surface area and dissipation... I assume the rail and shroud are aluminum, maybe steel, either way, that would be a nice heat sink and better dissipator than the original wood handguard as well.... that SHOULD run a lot cooler up top than original SKS kit... But the heat sink might throw that heat into your hand a lot worse, since part of the appeal of the original wood was to insulate the shooter's hand from the heat. I don't personally like the railed piston housings like that - threw too much heat into a TRS-25 and cooked it once.

But I'll also point out, this thread was regarding AR-15's, not SKS's, and when the OP and I talk about thin and fat rails, we're talking about the diameter of the AR free float handguard, although the same principles apply to the piston housing on the SKS.
 
That SKS piston tube is thicker to create a greater heat sink AND offer greater dissipation through increased surface area. I'd be interested to mic how thick it is, and see whether it would receive fluting to further increase surface area and dissipation... I assume the rail and shroud are aluminum, maybe steel, either way, that would be a nice heat sink and better dissipator than the original wood handguard as well.... that SHOULD run a lot cooler up top than original SKS kit... But the heat sink might throw that heat into your hand a lot worse, since part of the appeal of the original wood was to insulate the shooter's hand from the heat. I don't personally like the railed piston housings like that - threw too much heat into a TRS-25 and cooked it once.

But I'll also point out, this thread was regarding AR-15's, not SKS's, and when the OP and I talk about thin and fat rails, we're talking about the diameter of the AR free float handguard, although the same principles apply to the piston housing on the SKS.
the shroud is aluminum the tube is steel, it was tough to put on the yugo! it was a 1/8th 1/4 of a inch to long and wouldn't lock in so a dremel it down like the pro i am ;) to make it fit:)
not this ugly on line photo.. but this is the area tube that needed shorting up some 179785d1471219240-my-first-sks-sks-gas-tube.jpg btw i put this on because i like my red dot farther down the barrel
 
Steel is steel. It has a tendency to conduct heat from hotter areas to cooler areas (heat sinking, as previously mentioned). The more steel there is, the more heat capacity it has. This, combined with the higher elastic strength of the extra steel, is why heavier barrels stay accurate for more rounds than thin barrels. Length has a much lower effect on heat absorption than thickness.

Heavy fluted barrels are fluted primarily for weight reduction rather than heat transfer; the increase in surface area on a typical fluted barrel is minimal. However, the area between the flutes act as stiffening ribs, which allows for a more rigid barrel for a given weight.

The complex machined heatsink ribs on Thompsons like the M1921 were ultimately less effective than hoped, and were omitted from later versions like the 1928, because the extra machining was not worth the nominal benefit; without rapid airflow over a finned heatsink, the air around it saturates with heat quickly and they become rather ineffective.
 
What about heavy, fluted barrels?

The flutes give more area for cooling (such as the fins did on the original Tommy Guns).

Yup... As long as they're exposed to sufficient air flow, instead of letting hot air stagnate in the flutes...

more surface area through which to eject that heat.

That SKS piston tube is thicker to create a greater heat sink AND offer greater dissipation through increased surface area. I'd be interested to mic how thick it is, and see whether it would receive fluting to further increase surface area and dissipation...
 
The complex machined heatsink ribs on Thompsons like the M1921 were ultimately less effective than hoped

The biggest problem was production/machining cost, but the lacking performance was based on poor design. The fins weren't designed for natural convection, they were simply slapped on with an idea it would radiate heat... Unless the user was running, forcing convective airflow across the fins, the hot air between the fins simply acted to insulate the barrel, rather than to carry away heat... SO CLOSE.... The fins drew the heat away from the bore, but failed to eject it to the environment, so it all just came up to temp and stayed there...
 
@FL-NC is right to say the midlength carbines will run SLIGHTLY cooler than carbine length. This is really a cooler ACTION, rather than a cooler barrel, however. The carbine length carbine barrels will pump a larger volume (longer impulse) of higher pressure combusting plasma into the action. The action and BCG act a bit like a heat sink for the barrel, so if the action runs hotter, it won't be as effective at drawing heat from the barrel, so more heat will have to run forward instead of rearward into the action, so the barrel would be slightly hotter too, not productively, but rather, from loss of heat sink.
There is very little heat transfer to the AR action from the gas coming from the gas tube. As hot as I've ever gotten an AR, I haven't seen a carrier get very warm.
 
There is very little heat transfer to the AR action from the gas coming from the gas tube.

Agreed - but they sure try to sell the mid-lengths based on "cooler operation." How important running a "little" cooler might be seems to be drastically over-stated for how much a "little" actually is.
 
Hey thanks everyone for your help learned a lot ! Thanks for explaining and not just giving me a quick answer
 
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