Telescopic Batons

[kannonfyre]

Firearms ownership is highly illegal in my country. (Only uniformed government officers/agents/JBTs are permitted to carry arms and any private citizen found with a gun is liable to be imprisoned for MANY years. ) Even though weapons regulations are ridiculously strict here, (while criminals have everything from pistols to machetes ) I have decided to acquire a small telescopic baton as a precaution against the rising violent crime rate.

A former college buddy working for the LAPD recommended Winchester expandable batons. Does anyone have any opinions as to whether they are better than ASP batons? What are monadnock or casco baton? Which brand is the best?

Or should I just stick to the tactical folder that I carried when I was in college stateside? :banghead:

 

[bad_dad_brad]

I have an ASP. The ASP is very high quality but expensive. But I would carry a knife as well. Ya got to be careful with the ASP. You hit somebody on the noggin with that thing, you will probably kill them. Try an elbow shot, or a shot to the back of the arm. Ouch! That thing will break bones easy.

 

[kannonfyre]

Don't think I can carry TWO weapons on a daily basis (ie knife + baton). However, how well does the ASP work when large muscle groups like thighs or stomachs are hit? Their light weight bothers me a bit.

Also, I don't live in the USA and as such many ASP dealers have refused to ship overseas. Any bother brands I can consider if I can't get ASP?

 

[ajacobs]

While asp has long been the industry standard in non side handle expandable batons. Winchester is quickly winning favor for being heavier. Try this link

http://www.dummiesunlimited.com/batons1.htm

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

I'm in the process of switching from an ASP to a heavier baton, because I have come around to the heavy-is-good school of though in the last few years. The leading contenders, if your so inclined, are the Monadnock with the power safety tip (basically a small weight on the tip) or the Winchester, which is just plain heavy compared to most. Of course, if you want an unobtrusive whacking tool for a politically unfriendly enviroment, don't forget the obvious...

your basic cane, ala Cold Steel

 

[kannonfyre]

ok.....so Winchester batons are heavy and heavy sticks do more damage. Alright then........but can anyone recommend a good way of carrying them in a discreet manner?

If and when I get hold of a baton, I can considering mounting it horizontally on elastic loops at the back of my belt or getting a verticle belt holster with a flap to cover the baton.

Lastly, in a fight with someone else who carries an inpact weapon, what is the chance that the friction locks at the joints of the baton could disengage if the baton and the thug's weapon clash at that particular spot?

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

I haven't ever seen anyone have a problem with the joints while using one, but if you did the centrifugal force of your next swing ought to lock it up again. I seem to recall someone making a shoulder rig for ASP, but I don't have the info close at hand.

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

ok, found it, its by ASP, but you could probably come up with something similar if it wasn't adaptable...

ASP's shoulder harness

 

[kannonfyre]

Thanks for the link to the shoulder rig!

If anyone out there has any experiences with the Winchester baton your comments would be much appreciated.

Also, has anyone out there ever confronted a knife wielding goblin and an expendable baton before? How did it go?

 

[brownie0486]

I carried the medium length lightweight asp on duty for 9 years.

It will cause someone to have a very bad day. Learn the strike points for this tool and go to that area to inflict pain,injury, etc.

The heavier batons do not create more damage in my opinion. The will probably break bone easier if thats your goal [which it should not be].

Having trained in and being a trainer of the kali/escrima sticks, I have to say the lightweight sticks are pretty nasty to get hit with.
They are light [bamboo, originally] and that makes them very quick in the hand which translates to speed of strike which in itself will cause much damage dependant on where the strike is made.

I am not trying to break bone when I use the tool in a self defense role. I am attempting to keep the BG from harming me. Better get that one down before you find yourself arrested for assault yourself. If you inflict severe injuries to an assailant and admit you carried the heavier stick to "break bone" you could be looking at charges by the police.

The lightweight stick [asp fully extended] is ample protection where sticks are concerned. Take some courses in defensive tactics with the stick/baton.

A tip--You do not use it like a basball bat swung one handed in a wide arch.
It will be subject to confiscation by the opponent in this manner.

Targets:--wrists, elbows, ribs, forearms, knees
The easiest way to defend with these is to go for their wrist as they reach in on you. Stay tight, light flicks to the forearm or wrist will cause enough damage to stop the aggressor. If it doesn't, then you may escalate to a more effective target area on their body.

Most will cease and desist if they have their wrist, forearm slapped by a stick. Makes em not want to reach in again to harm you.

As to the asps staying open. Never seen one unlock. Matter of fact most of them have to be hit real good on a hard targetr[ like the street] to get them to close when you want.

Brownie

 

[Smoke]

I have one of the Winchester Batons and love them. I think the heavier mass of them is far superior to the ASP. Its simple inertia; transfer of energy will be much greater with a heavier object. Mag lights work too. I'd rather have a good Aluminum light than an ASP. (My opinion)

Concealing a Winchester Baton will not be easy.

With all due respect to Brownie....

I take it you're LEO. I'm not. You are constrained by policy and law that I am not. My goal in any confrontation whether armed with, gun, impact weapon, knife, or unarmed is to stop the threat. For a civilian, an impact weapon that can and will break bones can and will be viewed as lethal force. Don't pull it unless you'd also pull a gun. The advantage of a baton is it may be carried places a gun may not. Thats about it.

 

[brownie0486]

Transfer of energy isn't just about the heavier the more transferred.

Look to pistol cartridges for the theory behind it.

9mm 115gr @ 1400 fps actually dumps more energy into the target than a 148gr at 950 fps.

Speed will transfer plenty of energy. The orientals have been using light fast sticks for years over heavier equipment that could do the same thing.

My goals/constraints are the same as Smokes. Stop the threat from causing further potential harm to your person or another.

Same goals for police and civilans. We have to obey the same laws of the land and are not different in that regard. It is deemed lethal force as stated so be careful when and where you use it to defend with.

The lighter the stick the less likely to break heavy bone, agreed.
The heavier the stick the harder it is to wield quickly.

Two people with sticks, one heavy the other light, who wins?
If both have equal ability in stick, the lighter stick will prevail as a general rule.

Brownie

 

[Smoke]

I think the argument of comparing pistol cartridges and batons is moot.

Terminal ballistics have been argued over this board and TFL numerous times so I won't start again.

With that said, Brownie is right in regards to his statement on training. Finding two people equally matched is impossible. But the one with the better training & ability will prevail heavy or light stick.

As with guns... it ain't the arrow; its the injun.

 

[brownie0486]

"it ain't the arrow; its the injun."

Hadn't heard that one but I really like the saying.

Brownie

 

[kannonfyre]

pistol velocities again?

Why did I get the sneaky suspicion that we'd touch on the light & fast vs slow & heavy discussion?

Anyhow, while I feel that brownie has made some valid points, I would like to point out that my needs and abilities do differ. I will readily admit that I am clumsy and lack agility, hence the ability to strike wrists, elbows and other fast moving parts of the anatomy is limited. Hence, in a confrontation on the streets on my home country (where criminals attack in large fast groups), if escape is not possible, I would go for whatever assailent body part presented itself and hope to cause maximum damage. I really don't want to end up in hospital with extensive injuries and being too beaten in to give details of my attackers to the police.

However, I do sincerely agree with Brownie that training is necessary and have already gone for a few kali/arnis/escrima (these martial arts are outlawed locally) classes as well as reading the monadnock baton manual. It's on a one to one basis and I am paying about US$43/hour. Does anyone think I'm being overcharged?

 

[bad_dad_brad]

Since I only have the ASP, I can not offer an opinion on other batons. All I know, is one day I was fooling around with the ASP, smacked myself very lightly on the head with it, and man did that hurt. Try bouncing it on your knee lightly and you will get an idea on how devestating this weapon can be.

I think a lighter short baton is better. You can carry easier, deploy, and swing it faster. Oh, and another interesting thing you can do with a baton, is to use it closed as a sap and or a persuader pressed to soft parts like the neck.

I never close my ASP by pounding it on a hard surface. Hold it aloft, and shake vigorously. It will in a moment or two collapse.

 

[QKRTHNU]

I've got an 21" ASP Airweight baton. I like it a lot.

Short enough collapsed to fit in any of my pockets and nice and light so I carry it everywhere.

I've read reports of the Airweights bending under hard use and not being able to close. Big deal. If i need to use it I won't be concerned with it closing, just opening. I'll spend another ~$70 to replace it if it bends when hitting some BG. I feel much better knowing that it'll always be with me due to its light weight ease of carry.

 

[Pat Bateman]

kannonfyre, I know you didn't mean to say 'expendable' in one of your posts, but it brings to my mind the Mag-Lite. Big, heavy and slow. Made some big ol' scars on my head, made me bleed alot, but DID NOT take me out of the fight.
I'd hate to see what that knob on an ASP would do on one's head. But, the head's not the target, when you're a good guy. Any expandable baton of quality will probably do fine, within its proscribed area of employment. Don't worry about the ASP collapsing. Don't have experience with the Winchester, this is the first I've heard of it. Look into Fox Labs pepper spray, too.

 

[kannonfyre]

Greetings Pat,

Thanks for the input but I since I don't live in the US, fox distributors are EXTREMELY hesitant about shipping me their fine product. If I do get any pepper spray, I get it though the black market (pepper spray also illegal where i live ) and it's most often lesser known brands.

On striking targets, my escrima classes emphasise strikes to the shoulder blades, upper arms and elbows. I'll probably go for those areas out of sheer habit.

Lastly, assaults in my country is often akin to mob violence (police arrests are seldom for one on one altercations, it's for RIOTING). As such, "assaultees" often end up using lethal force just to stay alive.

Will be getting hold of a second hand eastern european expandable baton tonight. Thanks for all the input people!

 

[Drjones]

A lot of good, but differing points made above.

Recap:

-It's not the weapon, it's the skill of the user that matters.

-Heavier baton *may* be more effective, but is also FAR more difficult to carry, and is far more fatiguing to carry, just like a large, heavy gun. I know from experience.

-Lighter baton may be better because it allows for quicker strikes; you can keep it moving, making it more difficult for opponent to grab hold, whereas if you are swinging a heavier baton like a bat, it would be easier for opponent to grab in between swings. You are also more likely to carry a lighter baton with you more often.

-I don't know a thing about the Winchester batons, and because they don't have much of a track record, I personally would recommend you stick with the two proven brands: Monadnock & ASP

-I would recommend the Monadnock Autolock for several reasons:
- Heavy. Don't know how it compares to the Winchesters, but its got a nice heft to it, moreso than the ASPs.

- Will NOT lock open as the ASP's can do. ASPs have locked open which can be a huge pain, ESP. if it happens during practice. (you wouldn't be inclined to practice as much.) I've read it is not uncommon for the ASPs to lock open. The Airweights are particularly suceptible to this, as well as to bending/breakage because they are made of a lighter aluminum alloy.

- Ease of opening/closing. (Pushbutton Autolock system)


Hmmm..that's all for now....

 

[kannonfyre]

Strength Training?

A question for both Smoke and Dr Jones,

Since it's already been established that Winchester batons are heavy and tough to conceal, are there anyways around these two weaknesses?

Are there any good weight training exercises that you both can recommend that are good for stick fighters? Any suggestions for a good belt holster that minimises the exposure of a winchester baton?

The reason I am asking is because I will be visiting my brother in the US and he's offerred to sell me his used winchester baton.

 

[Drjones]

Kannon:

Just looked it up, and the weight of my 26" Monadnock Autolock is about 22 oz. (Close to 2 lbs) Sorry, don't know what that is in kilos.

Regardless, that's a fair amount of weight to try to carry.

I have searched extensively, and have not found a single baton holder that lends itself well to concealed carry. (Except the ASP shoulder scabbard that someone linked above, which looks REALLY cool and effective. Unfortunately, it does not work with Monadnocks. )

Surprisingly, what often works quite well is if I just stick it in my waistband in the front of my pants. The rubber "Supergrip" keeps it in place quite well.

I suppose if you really strengthened up your entire arm, forearm, and shoulders, you may not feel the weight as much.

Or just train and practice with it a lot.

Oh and also: didn't someone above mention that these aren't really meant to be used one-handed?

 

[Drjones]

Couple more thoughts:

No matter how strong you get, or how much you train with a heavy baton, that's not going to change the way it feels when you are carrying it.

Also, there are distinct advantages to slow and heavy vs. fast and light.

Slow & Heavy: Less blows needed to produce desired effect. If you could end the confrontation with one hard hit, so much the better.

On the downside of S&H, if you had more than one opponent, S&H could work to your disadvantage.

 

[kannonfyre]

so I suppose it's more a matter of the man fitting the baton than it is the baton fitting the man. If I am not wrong, a 21" winchester is an ounce heavier than your monadnock. I suppose working out with dumbells everyday is in order then.........

If only lightsabres were available, I would not have to bother with batons.

 

[brownie0486]

kannonfyre:

Strikes with a stick should be made to the wrists, elbows, shoulders, ribs [ if the BG open up enough to access them ], knees, etc.

Basically you want to go for joints on the arms. Stay away from the head shots if possible unless you want to cause death or coma and possibly be charged with a crime yourself.

Basically in a defensive posture you want to defend against the attacking limbs as thats where the threat is coming from.

I don't carry an asp baton daily myself but would only consider carrying the lightweight aluminum which I own. It's the medium length lightweight I prefer.

Gives me enough reach, is extremely fast in the hand and can be carried all day without undue weight as in the all steel versions.

Again, please realize that the orientals developed stick fighting using light bamboo sticks instead of something heavier [ which they could have come up with ]. Centuries with the sticks has them using light not heavy. Must be a reason for that decision.

Also, if you are taking classes for stick training, they are using lightweight stuff, does that tell you what you should be considering?


Brownie