Tell me about shoulder shots on ungulates

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If any of you guys ever find yourselves in Africa that behind the shoulder stuff is going to get you in a whole bunch of trouble.

Watch the video that FITASC666 posted. That information is 100% correct and once you learn to do it you'll start getting far more bang flops on your kills. Not only does that shot drop animals of any kind far faster than a behind the shoulder shot it also gets lungs and it usually will rupture the ascending major vessels of the heart. There simply is not a more effective body shot than a high shoulder.

The reason that we in America are taught the behind the shoulder method is that we are still hung up on the advice of our colonial fathers who were using soft lead and round balls. In their cases a small caliber round ball would not reliably break bone so a soft tissue hit was the best option.

People ask me if the lungs and heart are further forward on African game. The answer is in some cases yes. But the real reason that Africans have learned to shoot for the high shoulder is that when hunting stuff that can and will readily and happily kill you back it becomes rather important to drop stuff on the spot so that it doesn't get a chance to exact it's revenge. A double lunged behind the shoulder cape buffalo can live for a very long time and still be able to kill you when you find it several hours later. The imperative for a quick kill / stop becomes obvious in these situations.
 
OK, sounds good.

BUT, is the "high shoulder" the intersection of the scapula and humerus, or is "high shoulder" higher up, on the scapula itself? Why is it called "high shoulder" instead of just "shoulder" shot, if it's not ON the scapula? Would the joint of the scapula and humerus be the "low shoulder" or just "shoulder"? :confused:
 
Update:

Look at point 1:12 into that youtube video..... clearly the bullet path they are calling high shoulder is directly through the dead center of the large triangular portion of the scapula.

But then oddly, he goes on to shoot a good 4-5" BEHIND that point and calling it the same shot. :rolleyes:
 
People ask me if the lungs and heart are further forward on African game. The answer is in some cases yes.

Yes, in the case of feral hogs OR Javelina, two common American game animals. Shoot either behind the shoulder, and as I found out with the first one I ever shot, you're going to be in for a long blood trail and a lot of excitement in the end. A hog or Javelina ain't no cape buffalo, but it can still mess up your boxers! Bad thing is, when those animals run, they head for the heaviest cover and you are on your hands and knees following a really pissed off hog in heavy cover. It's pretty scary.
 
Tad, I believe what he was trying to demonstrate in the video is that with that shot you have a wider margin for error for wind drift.

Good info H&H, never considered the colonial implications of the behind the shoulder shot.
~z
 
Obviously H&H and I are in agreement--perhaps he said it a bit better. If meat is not the big concern (I'm often guilty, but that doesn't make it right), a shoulder shot (breaking humerus and on into lungs) is the way to stop the program. If I'm shooting at a big bull elk, meat isn't #1 on my mind, hence a shoulder shot. Game over.
 
2. Do you ALWAYS, SOMETIMES, or NEVER also hit a lung with this shot? Ever hit two, or just one, or neither?

Yes. Generally a shoulder shot (or a shot in the leg, just below the joint) will do considerable damage to lungs and heart -- for larger game, a premium bullet like a Nosler Partition Jacket is advised, so it will have plenty of mass to penetrate after hitting heavy bone.

One benefit of this shot is that bone fragments add to the effectiveness of the bullet.
3. (related to #2) Does this shot ALWAYS, SOMETIMES, or ALMOST NEVER require a quick coup de grace follow up shot?

There's no such thing as "always." In general, a hit in the leg just below the shoulder joint will almost always put game down, and the animal will usually be dead before you walk up to it.
4. Does this shot always require a full broadside, or can you get away with a quartering toward or away? If so, how much on quartering away, and how much on quartering toward - 15 degrees, 30 deg, 45 deg, 60 deg, what, on each? And still have it be an effective shot? Requires a smaller angle of quartering toward or away than a heart/lung shot, before feeling confident to take it, or about the same?

For a rear quartering shot you should aim through the animal, to hit the leg on the far side.
5. (related to #4) Do you always hit both shoulder blades, or just one, or what?
As I said, I try to break the leg below the shoulder joint. This simply requires slightly adjusting the aim from the classic heart/lung shot. Simply aim 2/3s of the way down the body behind the joint, then shade it forward to hit the joint.

You can break both legs only if the animal is perfectly lined up.

6. How far do they run, on average, with this shot? If it depends, then what does it depend on?
I have had animals fall down a steep slope, but they rarely run any distance with one leg broken and the heart and lungs taken out.

7. Would you ever take this shot with a bow, with say, Muzzys, or gun only?

I would not try to break a leg with a bow -- take the classic heart/lung shot behind the leg with a bow.

8. Do you have an opinion as to whether, *generally speaking*, it is more desirable or less desirable than a neck shot, when given a choice?
A neck shot is a very bad choice -- the animal has to present just right, the neck is a small target, and if you miss it, you don't do enough damage to put the animal down.

The heart/lung shot shaded slightly forward is a much better choice.
 
The last three deer I shot I aimed for different spots on the shoulder area but I will try to explain as I answer you questions as best I can with a keyboard.

1. Most importantly, can someone post up an image with a dot showing exactly where you aim for the shoulder shot, please?

With the provided link to the pictures, using the first one with the red dot, The difference was my deer was standing slightly more towards me, and I aimed to the area where the base of the neck junctions the shoulder blade. At the shot the deer simply crumpled. In looking at the diagram above you can see that my shot passed just under the intersection of the spinal junction of the neck and back bone as well as took out the opposite side lung and most of the heart. This particular area is very vulnerable to the hydrostatic shock from a bullet moving through it. With all of the nerves it quickly incapacitates the game and they hit the ground.

2. Do you ALWAYS, SOMETIMES, or NEVER also hit a lung with this shot? Ever hit two, or just one, or neither?

Sometimes yes sometimes no, it depends on the actual angle of the game. With a little more towards a quartering shot the chances of hitting both lungs go down verses more of a broadside shot.

3. (related to #2) Does this shot ALWAYS, SOMETIMES, or ALMOST NEVER require a quick coup de grace follow up shot?

I have never had to make a second shot on deer or hogs using this shot placement.

4. Does this shot always require a full broadside, or can you get away with a quartering toward or away? If so, how much on quartering away, and how much on quartering toward - 15 degrees, 30 deg, 45 deg, 60 deg, what, on each? And still have it be an effective shot? Requires a smaller angle of quartering toward or away than a heart/lung shot, before feeling confident to take it, or about the same?

My basic reason to take such a shot is to put the animal down on the spot, meat is not an issue at this point in time. I generally use or try to use this particular area in very dense forest, or when conditions do not favor following up on something that has run. I have no issues with the angle if I can put it through the base of the neck or junction of the neck/spine, and still get through to a lung or heart. Quartering towards or away, the angles might change but the intent is still the same, to put the game on it's nose right where it stands.

5. (related to #4) Do you always hit both shoulder blades, or just one, or what?

Sometimes I do not hit either, as mentioned it depends on the actual position and movements of the game.

6. How far do they run, on average, with this shot? If it depends, then what does it depend on?

If they do run, which some try but do not succeed, it is only a few yards at most.

7. Would you ever take this shot with a bow, with say, Muzzys, or gun only?

I would not attempt this type shot with a bow simply due to the ability of the arrow to skim under the hide over the top of the shoulder blade instead of actually penetrating through it. Also there is, as has been mentioned, a LOT of heavier bone in this area which will also hamper penetration.

This said, I aimed for a spot similar to the first one with the red dot on it, for my first archery buck. Difference being his onside leg was in front instead of back like the one pictured. At the shot he ducked, and the arrow hit him squarely between the shoulder blades and through his spine. He did rock three feet or so sideways, but recovered and headed off in high gear, not going around the small trees and bushes but through them. I knew it was a good hit due to the way he was running, but we found no blood what so ever. The buck made it close to 80 yards and piled up in some 6' tall grass on a pipeline. We tracked him as best we could and still couldn't find him. That evening the buzzards had found him when my friend returned, and I finally got to him about 10:30 that evening. Needless to say he wasn't good after laying there in 80+ weather. However the shot destroyed a couple of vertebra, and exited just in front of his offside ham, leaving gut to plug the hole. The shot was at 22 yards and penetrated through almost 3' of deer and still exited. I did not open him up to look, but based upon the initial hit and the direction of travel, I hit the backside of the offside lung as well as the liver on the way through.

8. Do you have an opinion as to whether, *generally speaking*, it is more desirable or less desirable than a neck shot, when given a choice?

I try to use this type shoulder shot only for a true trophy deer, other than that I would just as soon let them walk on by, or hit them between the ribs. I have taken many shots to the neck, only due to knowing the anatomy very well. I knew exactly where I was shooting and what the result would be. Most of my shots to the neck are withing the white circle under the chin, with them standing looking straight at me. this is not a recommended shot for newer hunters, or folks who haven't boned out their own deer taking note of how things are located. For seasoned hunters however it is a viable option which generally does them in on the spot. I have shot deer in the spot marked in the second picture from the link and had mixed results. When they are looking straight at you it's hard to tell if there is a little bit of uphill or downhill angle to the body. If the rear is lower, there is a good chance you might shoot right through the deer and not hit anything vital at all. Been there done that saved by a quick follow up. With the rear end higher, there is a chance your going to make one hell of a mess and still have to track your deer.

These might or might not be answers your looking for but they are from my field experiences through the years. I have take many deer and hogs from many different angles, and I always try to learn something from them all. I do inspect the damage inflicted and analyze the shot after getting the hide off and having them dressed out. It helps not only from my hunting knowledge but also in developing the loads I use, or the arrows, broadheads, and bow I shoot.
 
Alrighty guys here is what I am trying to explain. The picture below is a depiction of what in Africa would be called the “vital triangle“. Put a bullet anywhere in there and you are in business on just about any animal on the planet. This shot also likely will break or shock the spine and often takes out both front legs.
Deershotplacement1.gif
The depiction blow shows roughly the area of the lungs in a North American animal
deerhotplacment2.gif
This depiction shows the roughly where the heart is and roughly where the ascending major vessels are. Remember that rupturing the vessels above the heart often kills quicker than a hole through the actual heart muscle.
deershotplacement3.gif

And finally I am not trying to tell you guys where to shoot your deer. Anything forward of the diaphragm will kill any kind of deer. This shot simply anchors them very effectively. And becomes more relevant with larger game. This is simply another option . As far as meat damage goes. It does more meat damage than a behind the shoulder shot however it does less than you might think, it mainly gets some high shoulder and neck meat which is negligible IMHO.
 
The problem with shooting the shoulder is if you aim high its a miss and with some of the cannons ans such people use the whole front quarters comes out ruined. If your useing a decent gun it only ruins half of it. As to the heart who eats such a thing. Tastes like heart to me. I throw it to the beasts of the feild and let them choke on it and sometimes it's all blowen to peices anyways so they don't have to chew so hard.
 
The problem with shooting the shoulder is if you aim high its a miss

And the problem with a heart shot is if you AIM low it's a miss. The secret to all of this is to aim where you want to hit.:rolleyes:
 
The secret to all of this is to aim where you want to hit

ha ha, yep. Easier said than done, at least for me. This is why I go behind the shoulder to give my self plenty of wiggle room, and still hit vitals. The shoulder shot could put your round in an area where no vital organs are located, with only a slight pull to the front or above.

I'm no African hunter, and I see what you guys are saying about making a shot to stop the animal from running off.
 
I have had good luck with the "high" sholder shot on deer, elk, and black bear. NO they were not all dead when I got to them, but they were ALL with in a couple feet of where they were when I shot them. I like this shot when animals are maybe a little farther than I think, if the deer is 325yds not 275 I still am in the low sholder/heart area. If I hit a little high well its all spine and that animal will hit the ground befor I come down out of recoil.
 
I get asked to attend a fair number of cull hunts, so my opinion on this is effected by having more meat than I need. I always look for a shoulder shot, and I RARELY have quarry take a step, much less run when that shot is well placed in the center of the shoulder. I generaly hunt deer with a .270 or 7 mag. In south Texas, our local whitetails rarely hit 100lbs., so the shoulder shot explodes the joint & just liquifies the heart & lungs. This nearly always ruins both shoulders, but you still have backstrap & hams to harvest, and the quarry drops where you shoot it.
 
4. Does this shot always require a full broadside, or can you get away with a quartering toward or away? If so, how much on quartering away, and how much on quartering toward - 15 degrees, 30 deg, 45 deg, 60 deg, what, on each? And still have it be an effective shot? Requires a smaller angle of quartering toward or away than a heart/lung shot, before feeling confident to take it, or about the same?

If I can wait for a 20 - 30 degree quartering away, then I can probably save the offside shoulder & that is ideal. Likewise, if they quarter towards, I generaly hold that shot & wait for broadside or better. Bad things happen when you blow that joint deap into the body of the animal from a steep quarter towards angle. I was on a cull hunt a few years back; the land owner had a decent 8 point whitetail in a 20 acre high-fenced pen for his 13 year old son to shoot. Bless his heart, he partially cut the deers neck with a non-lethal shot, and then emptied his .220 swift as he tried to take out the animal in a flat run. Since we were in a pen, the animal would run to the end of a 300 yard high fence, then run back, turn unpredictably and run back again. The owner asked me to take the buck, and the only shot I had was to wait for him to turn at the end of that fence 300 yrds away. That shot hit his back left hip, blowing out that joint at a better than 30 degree angle into his body. In cleaning the animal, we found bone fragments IN nearly EVERY PART OF THE ANIMAL, mixed with what used to be his digestive track. That animal had nothing recoverable & was a total right-off. Quartering away is ideal, but I would pass on any quartering toward shot unless it was the only available followup to prevent a run-off loss.
 
Easier said than done, at least for me. This is why I go behind the shoulder to give my self plenty of wiggle room, and still hit vitals. The shoulder shot could put your round in an area where no vital organs are located, with only a slight pull to the front or above.

If you hit shoulder with any respectable loading, you ARE hitting vital organs. If you miss forward, you take a clean, effective neck shot. If you miss backward, you take a clean heart lung shot. You hit shoulder, you still take out heart & lung as well as mobility. You can't loose unles you hit 18 inches back, in which case you need to quickly harvest the shoulders & tenderloins & bury the rest.
 
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