Temporary POI shift with loose loading vs. paper carts.

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.38 Special

.38 Special

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I recently had an interesting experience at the range. With percussion revolvers I normally either load loose or use paper cartridges. Until recently, I'm not sure I've ever switched between the two during one outing. With my newest custom 1851 I was enjoying myself so much that when I ran out of cartridges I switched to loose, and immediately began missing the target (8"x10") at ten yards.

Of course I checked the gun right away, assuming sight drift or something, but could find nothing wrong. Another volley resulted in a terrible group on the bottom left edge of the paper. With each loading, the group shrank and became more centered. After a few dozen rounds, the gun went back to its usual screaming accuracy and hitting right at POA.

I have utterly no explanation for this phenomenon and will experiment more to see if I can replicate it. Has anyone else experienced this?

<edit> Although the more I think of it, the more I realize that .22 LR is known for this sort of behavior when changing from one brand to another. I've experienced it with .22s, but never to such a degree!
 
I agree with shooter error, but would like to speculate about other possibilities.

Maybe something about the cartridges produced more velocity until the bore became fouled when using the loose powder which re-upped the velocity again?

Do you think that the cartridges could be leaving any air space in the chambers?
Or perhaps the paper causes the cartridge powder charge to be more compressed during loading compared to when loading with the loose powder which affected the velocity.

Could you at least show us what your cartridges look like ?
How much of which powder is being loaded?
Is any lube being used at all or swabbing being done?
Please provide more details to further confound us. ;)
 
Hmm that is odd....but then again i feel i have a more consistent load when i shoot paper cartridges because i make sure the charge is weighed and all complete cartridges are the same size and even the paper used is the same dimentions ensuring that the powder is compressed to the same degree as the next cartridge. Id have to see your paper cartridge and get details like if lube was used? If lube was used then what type...lube disk, felt wad etc? was the powder weighed? Bullet or ball? Were the cartridges made to be all the same dimentions? Id also like details on your loose powder shooting. Little things can make a difference...thats why i stick to paper cartridges for consistency.
 
You guys figured it out! I completely forgot how to shoot in the time it took to load up six rounds loose, and then gradually relearned over the next 24 rounds! :p

I use the "capnball" cartridge making tool, which is of the "tapered dowel and matching hole" design. Nitrated curling paper, 15 grains Olde Eynesforde 2f from a dipper, Eras Gone conicals of pure lead, dipped in Gatofeo.

Loose load is same powder but 17 grains, swaged .380 RB, thick felt wad soaked in Gatofeo.

These loads shoot to about the same POI when used separately, and after the gun "got used to" the switch from cartridges to loose, it eventually did get back to the proper POI. There was just something about the switch that temporarily changed POI.
 
.38 Special said:
Nitrated curling paper
Click to expand...

Not only is the paper itself adding to the MV but nitrate added to black powder tends to cause a more complete burn, thus probably creating an even higher MV.

In The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts, he mentions the practice of black powder rifle shooters, competing at 40 rods [220 yards] loading 5 grains of nitrocellulous [smokeless] shotgun powder into their rifles, and then loading the main black powder charge on top. Roberts wrote that those who did this reported less fouling and more consistent results. I submit that the nitrated curling paper may be giving you the same results.

LD
 
There's a lot of variables in those loads.
If the dirty bore took 24 shots to return to point of aim after shooting the conicals, then perhaps that's how long it took for the wads with Gatofeo lube to gradually clean out the bore.
My guess would be that the dipped conicals don't provide enough lube to keep the bore as clean as when you usually shoot the round balls only.
Maybe next time when you switch projectiles during a shooting session, you can try swabbing the bore to see if that helps to keep the POI constant.
If you try doing that then I would like to hear if it helps any.
 
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Loyalist Dave said:
Not only is the paper itself adding to the MV but nitrate added to black powder tends to cause a more complete burn, thus probably creating an even higher MV.

In The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts, he mentions the practice of black powder rifle shooters, competing at 40 rods [220 yards] loading 5 grains of nitrocellulous [smokeless] shotgun powder into their rifles, and then loading the main black powder charge on top. Roberts wrote that those who did this reported less fouling and more consistent results. I submit that the nitrated curling paper may be giving you the same results.

LD
Click to expand...

I really am surprised that the two different loads shoot pretty close to the same POI, at least out to 20 yards or so - and assuming I'm not using both loads during the same session!
 
arcticap said:
There's a lot of variables in those loads.
If the dirty bore took 24 shots to return to point of aim after shooting the conicals, then perhaps that's how long it took for the wad with Gatofeo lube to gradually clean out the bore.
My guess would be that the dipped conicals don't provide enough lube to keep the bore as clean as when you usually shoot the round balls only.
Maybe next time when you switch projectiles during a shooting session, you can try swabbing the bore to see if that helps to keep the POI constant.
If you try doing that then I would like to hear if it helps any.
Click to expand...

I suspect lube is the issue as well. I wonder if it might be the other way around, though. The conicals have a lube groove, and along with all the lube stuck to the rest of the bullet, I suspect they actually carry quite a bit more lube than is provided by the wad. But of course, the wad may be scraping the bore clean as well. Who knows. I am sure that cleaning the bore before switching would solve the problem, but mostly I am curious about the underlying issue. Perhaps next time I will try loading loose first and then switching to cartridges.
 
Perhaps when firing lubed bullets, because the lube is not located behind the bullet when its fired, the lube will produce a different spread pattern or have a different degree of effectiveness than when it's saturated in a wad located behind the bullet. It's possible that a lubed bullet inside of a paper cartridge doesn't disburse much lube inside of the bore at all.
That could also depend on the bullet caliber, the amount of powder, the construction of the cartridge and possibly other factors.

The effectiveness of lubed wads can also be variable depending on how much lube that the wad carries.
But I think that the same advice to start firing each type of projectile with a clean bore may apply unless you find that something else works to not change the POI when making the switch.

Swabbing the bore only takes a minute using a pistol rod or dowel and a patch soaked with water, Ballistol, pure mineral oil [i.e. - laxative], windshield washer fluid or whatever else that you want to use.
This might be more preferable than suffering from poor accuracy for up to 24 shots and worth a try.
 
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I think you are saying that the gun shoots great when you use cartridge loads or loose powder and ball. The obvious differences of relevance in the experience you describe is the powder and bullets The cartridge loads you came with and the loose powder and ball loads were different worlds. One world worked and the other did not. If the cartridge loads used the same batch of bullets as the loose loadings, then the issue must be with the powder. Contaminated powder would explain the poor performance and the miraculous self-cure. ie: firing off the bad stuff lead to the good stuff which lead to the POA / POI stuff. This makes sense in my mind but I would stay away from black cats for awhile -
 
The paper cartridges were a) giving a better gas seal, and b) diminishing fouling vs loose powder loads. When you started shooting loos powder, you had a relatively fouling free barrel and poor gas seal. After a few loose powder loads, the fouling began to provide the gas seal and got you back in the general vicinity of the paper cartridge loads.
 
DocRock said:
The paper cartridges were a) giving a better gas seal, and b) diminishing fouling vs loose powder loads. When you started shooting loos powder, you had a relatively fouling free barrel and poor gas seal. After a few loose powder loads, the fouling began to provide the gas seal and got you back in the general vicinity of the paper cartridge loads.
Click to expand...

That is an interesting idea. I would think, though, that the first few "loose loaded" shots with a clean bore would then have the same trouble - but the gun is very accurate and hits to POA regardless of whether I start the day with cartridges or loose loading. I really think I need to start the next outing with loose loads and then switch to cartridges to see if I get the same effect.
 
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