Tested: 38 Special HST 130gr +P in Gel

[USBP379]

Good morning!

Here's something you will be interested in. At least all y'all who carry a 38SPL for defense.

There have been a few tests of this particular load in Clear Gel but, so far at least, mine is the first test I've seen in 10% organic gel. I've used Clear Gel previously but have only recently started messing with making true organic gel. I've tried a couple different blocks with grocery store gel but have decided to start using VYSE gel since it is the correct stuff. It is supposedly favored over other options for its consistency and I've found it easy to work with.

The organic gel block used here was made last weekend and has been under refrigeration for a week. I took it out of the fridge this morning and immediately put it into a Coleman cooler for transport for the hills. Total time in the cooler was about 35 minutes from fridge door to range setup.

Three .177 BBs were used to validate the block. Chrono data was only captured for one BB. This showed a muzzle velocity of 579 fps. All three BBs fell within millimeters of the 8.5cm calibration.



Next up was one round of the 38 HST +P fired into bare gel. The firearm used was a Ruger LCR with a 1.87" barrel.

The recorded muzzle velocity was 854 fps. This bullet penetrated to a depth of 11.25 inches.



Next was a round through FBI spec heavy clothing. The heavy clothing sample was bought from Clear Ballistics and is two pieces of cotton fabric covered by a layer of insulation and topped with a sheet of denim.

The first bullet through clothing had a recorded velocity of 825 fps and punched to 11.75 inches in the block.


The 3rd and final round fired through clothing penetrated right to the 12" mark with a velocity of 860 fps.



Just for comparison I also fired one round of Winchester 110gr +P+ through clothing into the block. This bullet showed 1,015 fps for velocity and penetrated to 10.25 inches.


All shooting was done from 10 feet. The chronograph was set up directly in front of the gel.

The bullets all lost at least one petal. But the part(s) that broke off are small pieces of the lead core. None of the jacket material appears to have been lost. The small pieces all broke off between about five and eight inches in the gel.

Here are the three HST bullets on the left. The Winchester 110gr JHP bullet is on the right and is included for comparison.


The HST bullets all lost a few grains of mass but it probably wasn't enough to radically change the outcome.





The Winchester bullet's weight wasn't photographed but it was 109.6 grains.

And here are the expanded diameters. All three bullets show a jacket that's peeled back against the shank of the bullets. The exception is one petal on one bullet. It didn't roll back fully but rather sticks out just a bit.




And here's the Winchester bullet. Again just for comparison.


Recoil is subjective but it seemed to me, during the course of this limited test, that the Federal load is softer shooting that the Winchester. If nothing else, the Federal load is slightly quieter and produces less muzzle blast.

Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks.

 

[wilburmay]

Much appreciated
Wilbur

 

[dickydalton]

Thank You.

 

[Jonesy814]

Great post. I have heard a bit about the new 38 special HST load but this is the first independent test results I have come across

 

[200Apples]

Thank you for a thorough test, and for taking the time to write this report then post it along with images. That is no casual undertaking.

You mention .38 Spl HST +P in your thread title, yet in your photo captions you mention only .38 HST. Which one is in the gel? I ask, because Federal makes a .45 auto HST and then a .45 auto HST +P...

Meanwhile, I like seeing that the heavier bullet, travelling a bit slower, penetrated deeper. I am not surprised. I prefer heavy-for-caliber pills, and when push comes to shove I'd rather be armed with a slower but larger diameter slug than I would one smaller and faster.

Along with my mid-bores, I do have some .357/.38 chambered firearms. One is a little J-Magnum frame 3" Model 60-15 chambered in .357, and .38 Spl +P is a near-perfect load for it. Thanks again! for all your work in bringing this information to our attention.

 

[USBP379]

You mention .38 Spl HST +P in your thread title, yet in your photo captions you mention only .38 HST. Which one is in the gel? I ask, because Federal makes a .45 auto HST and then a .45 auto HST +P...

http://www.sgammo.com/product/feder...in-hst-jhp-federal-hollow-point-ammo-p38hst1s

 

[USBP379]

Yikes! I wasn't expecting great things but I'd expected better than this.

Three bullets shot against a windshield and light clothing this weekend. I used my LCR for these, too. Penetration was only 1 or 2 inches. Each recovered jacket only weighs about 38 grains.



I'm hoping someone else can try the HST in glass. I'm curious to see other results.

Here's a core I found about ten inches in the block. It was hidden away in the wound channel from a 300BLK 190gr Sub-X. It weighs 75 grains. I seriously doubt it would have gone far had it not made its way into an existing track.

I don't know what happened to the other two cores.

 

[Jonesy814]

From a personal protection stand point I don't see the poor performance in windshield penetration as that big of a deal. If I was in law enforcement it might matter more but then again almost all LE carrying a snub revolver are doing so as a back-up gun.

 

[WVsig]

Biggest problem with HST is that they do not put any flash suppressant in any of the loads. No flash suppressant in the primer or the powder. After 2 shots in low light or no light you will be night blind. I have shot is at a night time training and called Federal to confirm what I saw and they stated no flash suppressant in any HST load.

 

[WYO]

Thanks for the test. Penetration-wise, that looks about like standard .380 hollowpoints. Expansion may be different, though.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Thanks for the report- very well done, and I appreciate the effort.

 

[340PD]

Nice job. Thanks

 

[dickydalton]

Thanks for your test report.

 

[Striker]

Good report, great documentation.

 

[USBP379]

From a personal protection stand point I don't see the poor performance in windshield penetration as that big of a deal. If I was in law enforcement it might matter more but then again almost all LE carrying a snub revolver are doing so as a back-up gun.

While windshield penetration might not be a big concern from a civilian defense standpoint I think we could envision a need in a carjacking scenario. Also, given what we've seen recently with cars and trucks turned into weapons of terror, windshield performance might be something to consider when choosing defensive ammo. Furthermore, there are those far more knowledgeable than I who have equated performance against windshields to be an indication of performance against bone.

 

[Jonesy814]

Biggest problem with HST is that they do not put any flash suppressant in any of the loads. No flash suppressant in the primer or the powder. After 2 shots in low light or no light you will be night blind. I have shot is at a night time training and called Federal to confirm what I saw and they stated no flash suppressant in any HST load.

Flash supressed primer isnt even a thing. The only way to see a primer flash is if you are inside the shell case when it goes off. I have shot at night and there isnt enoughflash from a 38 special to blind you. Not from a 9mm, 45 or 40 either. There just isnt enough powder. Even loads with Power Pistol which is known to be flashy arent THAT bright. A full load of Win 296 with a 125 gr bullet in a short barrel 357 will throw some fire though as seen in my avatar picture

 

[fastbolt]

Yikes! I wasn't expecting great things but I'd expected better than this.

Three bullets shot against a windshield and light clothing this weekend. I used my LCR for these, too. Penetration was only 1 or 2 inches. Each recovered jacket only weighs about 38 grains....

FWIW, back in 2012 my agency hosted a Winchester event where a number of their rounds were test-fired in some of the normal barrier- testing scenarios.

In the laminated auto glass scenario, the RA38B 130gr +P (same thing as the PDX1 commercial load, according to Winchester), fired from a S&W J-frame snub, exhibited 7.75" pen & .52 expansion.

By comparison:
RA9TA 127gr +P+ did 7.25" & .51"
RA9T 147gr did 9" & .47"
RA9B (bonded) did 10" & .54"

Auto glass is tough stuff. The RA38B 130gr +P seems as though it might be similar in overall "performance" under those extremely difficult conditions as some of the other big name +P loads produced in the middle bullet range loads.

Since I often only carry one of my different J-frame snubs while riding one of my motorcycles, and I typically ride around the Coastal hills and back roads, I don't mind knowing the potential of the .38 +P loads I usually carry (except in my 37DAO, which only gets standard pressure, because it's on the old 37 frame). While I never got too overly concerned about potential problems if having to defeat auto glass during my LE career, I was curious how the generously large JHP nose cavity designs might help or hinder performance when defeating auto glass, fired from one of my short barreled snubs.

It's not keeping me awake at night, though.

Now, the very wide mouthed HST is an interesting design, and it's obvious that Federal released it with the "personal defense" market in mind, which probably includes offering it to their LE customers for off-duty & secondary weapon roles.

While I normally carry Speer 135gr GDHP +P, W-W 130gr RA38B +P & Rem 125gr HPJ/BJHP +P in my +P-capable J's, I'd not mind adding the 130gr HST +P to the list (especially if it's competitively, or better, priced ), once I can test-fire it a little in a few of my J's and get a feel for it when loading from speedloaders/strips, check primer hits, assess practical accuracy and felt recoil, etc.

Nice job of trying to replicate factory testing. Not easy, nor quickly done.

Just out of curiosity, though, how did you perform the auto glass test shots? Actual windshields? Older type or "modern"? Angle of the glass relative to the bullet hits?

Usually, when the ammo company mobile test "labs" do such things, they have a standardized glass plate held in a fixture at a fixed angle (accepted for industry testing standards).

 

[WVsig]

Flash supressed primer isnt even a thing. The only way to see a primer flash is if you are inside the shell case when it goes off. I have shot at night and there isnt enoughflash from a 38 special to blind you. Not from a 9mm, 45 or 40 either. There just isnt enough powder. Even loads with Power Pistol which is known to be flashy arent THAT bright. A full load of Win 296 with a 125 gr bullet in a short barrel 357 will throw some fire though as seen in my avatar picture

I miss typed the primer part of that statement. I agree with you on that. The rest not so much. I think you are wrong about the flash associated with 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP. The flash is enough to hinder your vision at night. It is not just the size of the flash it also has a lot to do with the color of the flash. It might not be enough to blind you but your vision and ability to properly identify a target will be diminished.

Shoot what you want but when you consider that the majority of gun usages, shootings and gunfights occur in low light situations, powder flash should be a major consideration when choosing defensive ammo. Every loves to shoot gelatin and use it as the end all be all consideration for defensive ammo but over look other important considerations. These days the variation between the best and worst JHP designs being currently produced is so small that if you do you part it does not matter what you have chosen. People get way too hung up on what a round does in gelatin. Carry on with the circular discussion.

 

[USBP379]

Nice job of trying to replicate factory testing. Not easy, nor quickly done.

Just out of curiosity, though, how did you perform the auto glass test shots? Actual windshields? Older type or "modern"? Angle of the glass relative to the bullet hits?

Usually, when the ammo company mobile test "labs" do such things, they have a standardized glass plate held in a fixture at a fixed angle (accepted for industry testing standards).

Thanks. I've been trying my best to make this an FBI-type test. Probably doing it as well as can be expected for a "back yard" test.

For the auto glass; I'm actually using an AS1 windshield I got from a junk yard. I built a frame out of 3/4" PVC that sets the glass as a 45-degree angle. I still have a pretty good chunk of the windshield that's clean and crack-free so I should be good for awhile. As soon as that's gone I'll start using pieces of AS1 safety glass from a local glass shop.

 

[SteadyD]

I finally had the chance to shoot some of these. I tested them for accuracy in a 442, 686+ with 2.5 inch barrel, and two K6s Kimbers. They were the most accurate by a significant margin. I was kind of surprised at just how accurate they were. Several times I had to check my target as I’d thought I had missed entirely, only to find that I was stacking shots right on top of each other and from 5 and 7 yards couldn’t tell.

I also noted that compared to the Golden Sabers I often use, they had significantly less muzzle flash, report, and recoil, and less report and recoil than the Short Barrel Gold Dots I am also fond of. I have switched out my Short Barrel Gold Dots and Golden Sabers for these in my 357/38 revolvers.

Thanks to the OP for sharing the tests. I wish they had penetrated just a bit better but I’ve seen other tests showing a little better penetration as well. Given the totality of all the available data I like what I’ve seen in them.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

They look like a good load unfortunate for me I can't shoot them worth a damn in my Rossi 68, the gun will only shoot 158 grs straight but that's what I carry anyway and it works

 

[golden]

For what it is worth, I tried the FEDERAL 130 grain HST +P load in a 4 inch barreled S&W model 15. I was worried when this load came out that it would keyhole in the target which would make it almost worthless. I got very good results with accuracy equal to the 125 grain sjhp + P REMINGTON ammo I normally keep in this gun. I found it controllable and accurate without the excessive recoil of the 158 grain lswhp +P load.
I now keep it in the small .38 special revolvers I use as a carry load. It is a pain to try a fast reload with speedloaders, so I use WINCHESTER "D" Defender 130 grain jhp ammo in my speedloaders for my 5 shot revolvers.
I am very happy with 11 + inch penetration as my old agency required a minimum of 9 inches with our 3 inch barreled .357 magnums. The FEDERAL HST load seems to equal the performance of the old 110 grain .357 load without the noise, blast and flash, plus you can use it in a smaller gun.

Jim

 

[Pat Riot]

USBP379, Thank you for going through all the trouble to do this test. I appreciate it.

I will have to try this load out in my revolvers and see how it shoots for accuracy.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Good test. Looks like a viable option.

Thanks for sharing that info and making the effort.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

A lot of the time we spend out in the world is with our vehicles. When you consider this, and the increase in acts of terrorism using vehicles as weapons, I am not convinced civilians don't need to consider performance in windshields and auto bodies. This is one of the primary reasons I carry a 10mm Auto loaded with 200 gr XTPs.

The expansion on those HSTs is excellent but I just do not consider that adequate penetration, even in bare gel. When you consider that something like 1 in 3 Americans is obese, and 40% are over weight, then consider that nearly any aggressive stance puts the arms in front of the thoracic cavity, I would rather have 14 to 16 inches of penetration in gel.