Testing 357 Plated Bullets Raises new Question

[The Bolt Man]

The Winchester brass I am using was purchased new and has been fired only in the Security Six.

I have 158 grain Rainier HP bullets and a couple of loads that shoot really well. The heavier bullet is more forgiving when it comes to powders and produces a better pressure curve.

I also have two different brands of 125 grain jacketed hollow point bullets that shoot well in the Security Six. Those bullets can handle slower and much larger powder charges, a good firm roll crimp and being pushed to 1200 to 1400 fps.

Maybe I need to give up on the 125 grain plated bullets in the Security Six.

 

[243winxb]

Squibs & Plated Bullets

One problem with the plated bullets and using the slower powders is the crimp. Plated bullets can not be crimped heavily and especially with a roll crimp. That limits the bullet pull that slower powders like for good ignition.

Yes, very true. Plated bullets seem to produce more squibs then other bullets when using starting loads with slow burning powders. This happens when the handloader is positive they had powder in the case. Here is where some brands of range brass, with thin case wall thickness, may be part of the problem. Low neck tension/bullet pull & little to no crimp.

 

[Walkalong]

Plated bullets seem to produce more squibs then other bullets when using starting loads with slow burning powders

I believe a lot of this comes from folks telling people to use lead data with plated bullets. Folks start at the bottom of lead data and stick bullets.

 

[SSN Vet]

any one ever try using the cream of wheat trick to decrease the powder position sensitivity problem?

 

[Walkalong]

Not cream of wheat, but I have tried poly fillers, and it doesn't work very well.

 

[The Bolt Man]

Today I tried Unique, AA 5 and AA 7. I used Winchester SPP with the AA powder and Rem. 1-1/2 with the Unique.

7.0 gr. of AA 5 produced a 3/4" group with powder forward and .40" group with powder to the rear. Powder forward average velocity was 861.0 fps, ES 88.6 fps. Powder to the rear average velocity was 1020.0 fps ES 46.8 fps. Almost no measurable difference in the groups point of impact.

8.0 grains of AA 7 with powder forward produced an average velocity of 647.0 fps ES 226.3 fps and one squib. Powder to the rear produced an average velocity of 1004.7 fps ES 24.6 fps. Powder forward group was .80" and the squib went 4.0" low. Powder to the rear group was .75" and 1.10" higher than the powder forward group.

5.5 grains of Unique was much like the AA 5. Powder forward produced a 1.4" group strung out vertically and the average velocity was 840.8 fps ES 86.2 fps. Powder to the rear average velocity was 940.1 fps ES 57.8 fps with the group .60".

Obviously, the AA 7 isn't working well. The AA 5 and Unique loads both had little or no shift with the groups from one powder position to the other. Also both loads had around 100 fps changes of velocity which is less than most other loads tried and the powder to rear had very low ES numbers.

For now the AA 5 shows the most promise. I will test that 7.0 grain charge using the three different primers in case one primer is preferred over another. This test will not be a powder positioned test. The firing will be what I call normal with no effort to position the powder.

Walkalong,

I have used corn meal as a filler with very good success. The load, a 357 mag. 145 grain WC, .358" and 4.0 grains of 231 & 8.0 grains of corn meal and 3.5 grains of 700X with 8.0 grains of corn meal were tried as a lead remover load and found to be very accurate. Without the corn meal I would get leading causing a loss of accuracy after 30 to 40 rounds. With the corn meal I had no leading and great "One ragged hole ten shot groups" at fifty feet. These have been great target loads without any leading.

The 8.0 grains of corn meal provides a light compression of the powder and corn meal, preventing the powder and corn meal from mixing. The corn meal must be very dry, because I have had some rounds loaded and stored for over three months and saw no difference in performance.

243winxb,

I chose the Winchester brass because of seven different brands of brass tested, the Winchester proved to be the thickest and likely hardest. This provides the best neck tention that I think is needed for these plated bullets. I have tried using a taper crimp, profile crimp and light to moderate roll crimp with the Winchester brass and find very little difference in the average velocities. The brass must be providing most of the bullet retention. No manufacturers brass is perfect and some variation will alwas be present. The Winchester is no exception but variation is minimal.

I know there are variations in the amount sizing dies will size. I am using a Lyman 357 Magnum Carbide sizer because it sizes a bit small than my other 357 mag. dies.

I will come back as soon as I try the AA 5 laod again.

 

[Walkalong]

I have used both poly fillers and wax gas check to eliminate leading in an over sized bore. Both worked great. The poly is a bit of a pain and the wax gas checks are a big pain, but they do work wonderfully.

With slightly compressed poly filled loads I was expecting awesome powder forward numbers, but they were not much better than with out filler. Hmmm.

7.8 Grs of Unique in .357 cases with a 125 Gr plated or jacketed bullet is a really good midrange load. It gives around 1250 powder back and 1100 powder forward in 6" guns. No fillers

AA #5 worked well too, and I was trying it in the range you listed, but that was back before I was testing powder forward numbers. All I know is it shot very well.

 

[The Bolt Man]

Walkalong,

You stated, "With slightly compressed poly filled loads I was expecting awesome powder forward numbers, but they were not much better than with out filler. Hmmm."

I admit this statement confusses me. To Me powder forward means the powder is at the base of the bullet, therefore the filler could only be between the primer and the powder. This wouldn't work.

Can you clarify what you meant?

When I loaded the rounds using a corn meal filler, I simply used another powder measure for the corn meal and it metered very well. Charge the shells with powder followed by the corn meal. It is a very simple process for loads that prefer powder to the rear, against the primer and with lead bullets there will be no leading.

 

[Walkalong]

I meant that I held the muzzle down vs up to get the powder forward numbers just like when using no filler, fully expecting better numbers because the powder should stay put, but the numbers hardly improved.

 

[The Bolt Man]

Walkalong,

The number of times where groups were better with the powder forward against the bullet have been rare indeed for me. Most of the better groups have been with the powder to the rear against the primer.

There can be a surprise with another powder position. I found with many of my light cast bullet loads in rifles shot the best groups with the powder rolled to the bottom of the cartridge while the rifle is in the horizontal position. That has been true for me when I use Remington 9-1/2 primers. Groups got worse with the powder to the rear and forward. The brand of primer has a lot to do with it. This has worked for me with Unique, 2400 and WC 820 that acts much like 2400.

I am thinking this is why a number of pistol loads seem to work quite well just load and shoot. Don't worry about powder position. Yes, there are some flyers at times and I blaime that on a round where the powder was more to the front or maybe the rear.

You have probably seen articals that have tested primers with great pictures showing the different types of flash, some long and others short. Some appear a lot larger or hotter flash and others not so much so. What this means is the various primer manufacturers primers are not all alike. Some prefer power in a particular position and I have found the Remington large rifle primer works well flashing over the top of the powder.

The pistol primers could be doing the same thing. Perhaps we have missed the boat when trying only powder forward or to the rear. Food for thought when dealing with small charges of powder in larger pistol cartridges.

 

[Walkalong]

I am thinking this is why a number of pistol loads seem to work quite well just load and shoot. Don't worry about powder position. Yes, there are some flyers at times and I blaime that on a round where the powder was more to the front or maybe the rear.

I agree. We drop the muzzle and bingo, a low velocity shot. Some of the loads I tested went through the same hole PB & PF, but some did not. It has been very interesting. I think one reason AA #2 seems to do well PF is that it rolls so well it ends up across the bottom of the case more than PB or PF. I have stopped looking for the loads with excellent PF numbers so much as looking for the loads that shoot well when the powder is spread out.

 

[Walkalong]

I have been tweaking some loads with Competiton and WST in .357 cases using the Berrys 148 Gr HBWC. I shot the latest today in a 4" 586-3 that I put a .400 target trigger in. Someone else had it drilled and tapped prior to my owning it.


4" 586. Low 90's, sunny & seriously humid.

Competition: 3.7 Grs - PB
Hi-719...Lo-673...Avg-705...ES-46...SD-18

Competition: PF 3.7 Grs PF
Hi-717...Lo-621...Avg-691...ES-96...SD-35

WST: 3.8 Grs PB
Hi-719...Lo-659...Avg-692...ES-60...SD-23

WST: 3.8 Grs PF
Hi-697...Lo-623...Avg-663...ES-74...SD-29

Both loads, both PB & PF, shoot to the same point of impact and are more accurate than I am.

The WC fills a lot of the case and really helps with the PF numbers. Cases come out very clean with no scorching and just a hair of soot. Low recoil and lots of fun. After chronoing the loads I was shooting at bits of broken clay pigeons on a bank at 40 yards and doing pretty well.

 

[Walkalong]

PS. Lead HBWC's are much easier to get great numbers with.

 

[243winxb]

You have found the answer to the problem.

Even better in a 38 special.

 

[Walkalong]

LOL


Works in .357 brass as well. I just did not have a pic.

 

[SSN Vet]

Walkalong,

When you load the plated 147 gr. HBWC, what are you doing for crimp?

Just a light touch with .357 roll crimp die to take the bell off?

 

[Walkalong]

I use a Redding taper crimp die and lightly crimp them. About .001 to .002 at most. They can take more, but have plenty of neck tension. More crimp does not seem to affect the numbers, so I have backed off to a light crimp. I have a Redding taper crimp die for .38 and .357 so I don't have to re-adjust them. I adjust them for a heavy taper crimp, and use bushings under them to get a lesser crimp. I record whatever bushing(s) I use.

I use the same sizer for .38 & .357, as well as the same seater, but have separate expanders, roll crimp & taper crimp dies.

 

[The Bolt Man]

Try Magnum Primers

We haven't discussed trying small pistol magnum primers. They may help reduce the powder position problem.

I plan to try some small pistol magnum primers and possibly some small rifle primers, just to see how they affect the powder position problem.

I will get back here when the test is completed.

 

[Hondo 60]

I have a S&W Model 10-5.
I use HSM plated bullets from The Hunting Shack, with 4.3 gr of Tite Group.
Various cases & I've used CCI, Win, Rem, & Tula SPPs

While I don't have group size, I can tell you that I regularly hit broken off pieces of clay pigeons at my range at about 10 yds.
For me, anyway, that's pretty accurate.
My chronograph seems to have a pretty wide spread 700s to 800s.

http://store.thehuntingshack.com/hsmplatedhandgunbullets.aspx

 

[PO2Hammer]

I load plated DEWC's long (1.440" COL) in .357 brass like Walkalong and get great results. the bullets are already started in the throats and there is minimal air space so most powders give good extreme spreads. No need for the super fast stuff, I use SR 7625, HP38 or Universal.

Accuracy is superb in my revolver and my Handi rifle out to 50 yards and clean up is a breeze. I've used both Rainier and Berry's plated 148 DEWC with identical results. These bullets are over looked gems IMO.

I'm using a Redding profile crimper set for a light crimp, but Walkalong's taper crimps look great, I might have to get a .357 taper die just for my plated bullet loads.

 

[The Bolt Man]

I did try remington no. 5-1/2 small pistol magnum primers and Remington no. 6-1/2 small rifle primers to see if they may reduce the ill affects of powder position. Please understand, my testing has been with the two extremes, powder forward against the bullet and powder to the rear against the primer flash hole. I chose this method because I often had the first round fired in each string of five printing well out of the group and velocity 100 fps to 250 fps slower than the other four rounds. My loading was with muzzle down and raised to level to the pistol rest. That usually placed the powder forward, but I probably raised the muzzle upward some times putting the powder in the bottom of the cartridge or even toward the rear. I have to admit knowing this now, I was being inconsistent and adding to the problem.

These primers didn't help at all. In fact the small rifle primer was worse. These two Remington primers didn't improve the ignition with the powder and bullet combinations I have been working with. I thought it would.

I understand most of us do our shooting without consideration of what position the powder is in and that works fairly well for most of us. Since 95% of my load testing is off a bench with a pistol rest, I am very aware of rounds that we often call flyers or shots out of the group.

When I shoot test loads without an effort to position the powder, I note the rounds were fired without trying to position the powder or random. This is when I would see the occasional rounds out of the group, great seven or eight round clusters and a couple rounds out. I started this testing to find the cause. The chronograph has been a great addition with velocity data.

There is no doubt powder postion has been the main cause of erratic grouping and erratic velocities. Also, the 357 magnum using smaller charges of fast to medium burn rate powders are more affected by powder position changes.

I shy away from fillers due to the extra step in loading but give in on occasion when one ragged hole groups can be had without trying very hard every time the load is fired. I also load mostly light to mid-range loads, since it doesn't require magnum velocities to punch a hole in a target. I shoot for pleasure and accuracy. Shooting full house magnum loads for extended shooting sessions is hard on me and the firearm.

Bottom line for me is the problem has been identified. It will never be eliminated completely with some loads but can be tolerated when not too bad and eliminated for some loads with extra effort or powder change.