Testing the law without being arrested?
- Thread starter Owen Sparks
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Owen Sparks
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Hey I'm back.
I do live near the Mississippi state line but I don't like to divulge my exact location or real name on the internet.
Back before there was such a thing as a carry permit the state of Mississippi made it nearly impossible to carry a loaded handgun by writing the law in such a way that a weapon was considered concealed if it was “concealed in whole or in part”. I have seen this interpreted to ridiculous extremes by law enforcement. I was once told that even if it is in your hand it is concealed because your hand covers a part of it.
Could this broad interpretation of the law be used to legally justify open carry in a holster by someone with a concealed carry permit that the state of Mississippi recognizes?
How can they charge someone with carrying a concealed weapon if they have a permit to carry concealed?
How can they charge someone with openly carrying a weapon if it is “concealed in part” which qualifies it as concealed under Mississippi law and is therefore covered by the permit?
I do live near the Mississippi state line but I don't like to divulge my exact location or real name on the internet.
Back before there was such a thing as a carry permit the state of Mississippi made it nearly impossible to carry a loaded handgun by writing the law in such a way that a weapon was considered concealed if it was “concealed in whole or in part”. I have seen this interpreted to ridiculous extremes by law enforcement. I was once told that even if it is in your hand it is concealed because your hand covers a part of it.
Could this broad interpretation of the law be used to legally justify open carry in a holster by someone with a concealed carry permit that the state of Mississippi recognizes?
How can they charge someone with carrying a concealed weapon if they have a permit to carry concealed?
How can they charge someone with openly carrying a weapon if it is “concealed in part” which qualifies it as concealed under Mississippi law and is therefore covered by the permit?
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belercous
Member
In re; the OP, Jim K has it right. There's no way to "test" a law without putting yourself in jeapordy.
If you haven't been arrested, you've suffered no harm. If you haven't been harmed, you have no standing to sue.
If you haven't been arrested, you've suffered no harm. If you haven't been harmed, you have no standing to sue.
andrewstorm
member
standing ?
"Under color of law " us 1983 deprivation of rights,or conspiracy against rights............just a theory,,,,,,,,,as good as any the antis got...or better ....
"Under color of law " us 1983 deprivation of rights,or conspiracy against rights............just a theory,,,,,,,,,as good as any the antis got...or better ....
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Well, andrewstorm and others can rant all they want, and wear out the exclamation point on the keyboard, but if someone challenges the law, and is arrested and is convicted, one little ramification is that they can NEVER legally own a gun again, unless they are either pardoned or have their civil rights restored, neither of which is guaranteed and which also take a lot of time and money to pursue.
(In the law, there is a process whereby the Attorney General can make an exception for a convicted felon, but this AG almost certainly would not do so, and further, Congress has denied funds for the process for many years, ever since an exception was made for the late Spiro Agnew, who still has the left wing frothing at the mouth even more than normal.)
Jim
(In the law, there is a process whereby the Attorney General can make an exception for a convicted felon, but this AG almost certainly would not do so, and further, Congress has denied funds for the process for many years, ever since an exception was made for the late Spiro Agnew, who still has the left wing frothing at the mouth even more than normal.)
Jim
belercous
Member
A Sec. 1983 suit is not applicable here, nor is it even close.
From what I could gather searching, if you have a CCW permit in MS, you can open carry. There seems to be some serious confusion about the law amongst Mississippians though. Some say it's just rumor and hearsay that you need a CCW permit to open carry, others say you absolutely need the permit.
Bottom line consensus seems to be though if you have a CCW permit, you are good to go on open carry.
Bottom line consensus seems to be though if you have a CCW permit, you are good to go on open carry.
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belercous
Member
It's not advisable to cite a consensus of an internet forum in court, those arguments don't tend to carry much weight before a judge.
Again, challenging a law will put one in jeapordy. So long as one has the financial means, can post bail & is willing to spend time in order to change the status quo, more power to them. Someone ought to do it, but finding that someone takes a bit more daring than most people have.
Again, challenging a law will put one in jeapordy. So long as one has the financial means, can post bail & is willing to spend time in order to change the status quo, more power to them. Someone ought to do it, but finding that someone takes a bit more daring than most people have.
mechanicworkman
Member
Why are we going on here guessing which state and city its from lets be serious here this is the internet if someone really wants to find out who you are from you post alone I am sure they could. This discussion seems a setup from the start to general to give any precise answers and all answers given are based in this setting off of where they live or where they think the guy is from
F-111 John
Member
My question is if you have a CCW permit, would open carry, which is by your definition only "partially concealed," be considered "brandishing" by these same convoluted law interpretations?
However, according to OpenCarry.org, a CCW is required to open carry in Mississippi, so I would assume not.
http://opencarry.org/ms.html
Carl N. Brown
Member
Wow. I have heard of a charge of concealed carry in Virginia dismissed because the arresting officer admitted he saw the butt of the handgun protruding from the accused's hip pocket. The judge reported asked "You saw the concealed handgun?" before dismissing charges. Just the obvious handgun grip visible constituted open unconcealed carry. (This was when concealed carry was illegal without a discretionary county permit and open carry was legal, both depending a lot on the attitude of the county judge toward RKBA. Virginia now has shall-issue concealed carry.)
Tennessee frowned on open carry as "going armed" and required that guns transported for hunting or target shooting be cased and locked in the trunk during transport. In Virginia, cased and locked in the trunk was illegal concealed carry: guns had to be transported visible in the passenger compartment.
How can different state legislatures interpret criminal intent in opposite ways?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Preemption refers to State laws which say that only the state legislature may make laws on gun possession, carrying, or other RKBA issues. In other words, that a local town, city, county, township, or other entity may NOT prohibit (or allow) anything that is not legal or illegal state-wide.
If you look up a state at www.handgunlaw.us Gary has a listing on whether the state has a preemption law or not. That lets you know whether you'll need to do a lot more research before you carry there, or if knowing the state laws puts you in the clear.
The conflicts that may occur between federal and state laws are a totally different issue.
If you look up a state at www.handgunlaw.us Gary has a listing on whether the state has a preemption law or not. That lets you know whether you'll need to do a lot more research before you carry there, or if knowing the state laws puts you in the clear.
The conflicts that may occur between federal and state laws are a totally different issue.
Just as Federal law preempts state law, state law can preempt lower government law in the state.
It is especially effective in 'Dillon Rule' states.
These are states that local governments only have powers that are specifically granted to them by the state.
If the state of Virginia did not specifically allow counties and cities to have dog catchers, they could not have them.
Here is Virginia's preemption law"
It was written hard (including section C.) to prevent some of the liberal counties and cities from even thinking about not following it.
It is especially effective in 'Dillon Rule' states.
These are states that local governments only have powers that are specifically granted to them by the state.
If the state of Virginia did not specifically allow counties and cities to have dog catchers, they could not have them.
Here is Virginia's preemption law"
It was written hard (including section C.) to prevent some of the liberal counties and cities from even thinking about not following it.
PowerG
Member
I'll post this again, this is from the MS Code:
"(18) Nothing in this section shall be construed to require or allow the registration, documentation or providing of serial numbers with regard to any firearm. Further, nothing in this section shall be construed to allow the open and unconcealed carrying of any deadly weapon as described in Section 97-37-1, Mississippi Code of 1972."
From what I can gather just from the internet, some people have been harrassed, while in other jurisdictions the police have looked the other way. I do know some LEO's and will ask them their instructions if they encounter someone open carrying, but of course that wouldn't be the final answer. I personally much prefer concealed carry for tactical reasons so have never tried open carry in town (I live way out in the country but work in Hattiesburg, one of the larger cities in the state), but have had interactions with law enforcement while concealed carrying and it's been a total non-issue each time.
"(18) Nothing in this section shall be construed to require or allow the registration, documentation or providing of serial numbers with regard to any firearm. Further, nothing in this section shall be construed to allow the open and unconcealed carrying of any deadly weapon as described in Section 97-37-1, Mississippi Code of 1972."
From what I can gather just from the internet, some people have been harrassed, while in other jurisdictions the police have looked the other way. I do know some LEO's and will ask them their instructions if they encounter someone open carrying, but of course that wouldn't be the final answer. I personally much prefer concealed carry for tactical reasons so have never tried open carry in town (I live way out in the country but work in Hattiesburg, one of the larger cities in the state), but have had interactions with law enforcement while concealed carrying and it's been a total non-issue each time.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I'll follow that with the comment that when the law says "nothing in this section shall ..." it doesn't necessarily mean to convey the overtones that such a statement would convey in casual conversation -- or if your mother said it while wagging her finger.
"And don't you dare think that I mean by that that you can so-and-so, either. Why if I catch you doing that I'll...!"
When this statement appears in law, it is meant very literally -- "nothing here specifically allows the following..." It neither grants that ability nor prohibits it. Other laws will have to speak to that point.
The question here is does the law in some other part, prohibit what we would normally think of as "open carry?" Laws do have to have fairly specific definitions spelled out, or they are open to both abuse and negation due to unclarity.
PowerG
Member
As far as I'm aware, this is the only statement regarding open carry anywhere in the code. I remain of the opinion that the code is ambiguous, and whether or not you could be arrested will depend largely on the policy of the jurisdiction you're in. At some point perhaps we will see a clarification of all this, and either get a court case, and AG opinion, or a change in the wording of the code that makes it plain. What I find troubling is that certain individuals and websites state that open carry is factually established as legal in Mississippi, when according to anecdotal evidence I've heard it is not, and telling people they are OK to do it is irresponsible. I do agree that it SHOULD be, according the laws taken in totality, but in playing devil's advocate on this thread I still believe that in certain locations in the state there is a definite possiblity of being confronted and perhaps even arrested.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Oh, undoubtedly true!
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