Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Texas Baptist leader's advice: Attack a gunman

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by coylh, Apr 26, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. coylh

    coylh Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    Bothell, WA
    http://archives.seattletimes.nwsour...ay?slug=baptist25&date=20070425&query=baptist

    Paige Patterson:

    Allan Baron:
     
  2. Devonai

    Devonai Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,853
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I'd rather have a 230 grain copper jacketed lead slug do my rushing for me.
     
  3. average_shooter

    average_shooter Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,269
    Location:
    mn
    I'm going to disagree with Devonai here - I prefer a 230 gr. JHP:D
     
  4. Lupinus

    Lupinus Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2005
    Messages:
    3,502
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    hell if I am going to be shot while after waiting. Comply until oppertunity arises, if no opertunity arises well hel lI aint got nothing to loose by trying to take the SOB with me.
     
  5. Iggy

    Iggy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,011
    Location:
    Wyoming
    I don't intend to die on my knees!

    Let's Roll!!
     
  6. TCB in TN

    TCB in TN Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,938
    Location:
    Middle, TN
    Yep it is SOOOOOO much better to sit there with you hands over your head, waiting in line for your turn, while the bad guy goes around and does double taps to all of your friends.

    Makes me want to just puke.
     
  7. Mr White

    Mr White Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,207
    Location:
    Central PA
    Hey, if we all start taking responsibility for our own safety, what's left for the cops to do? He's just protecting his job.
     
  8. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,957
    Location:
    Nevada, escaped from the PDRK via Idaho.
    What kind of training does Sgt. Baron recommend for charging an armed assailant when unarmed?

    Pilgrim
     
  9. pax

    pax Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    9,762
    Location:
    Washington state
    I think 32 people tried that one.

    :(

    pax
     
  10. EZ CZ75

    EZ CZ75 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    Valdez, Alaska
    I don't mean this as any slight to any victims of gun violence. This is just how I feel and believe we should all feel. I 100% agree with Ted.

    “You mean to say that when an imbecile walks into a church,
    office, day care center, or school, stumbling about, almost
    zombie-like, with gun-filled hands at his side, blabbering incoherently
    to his next victim, the reaction of grown men and women is to run, cry,
    whimper, and hide under a desk or pew? The sheeping of America is
    nearly complete.”--Ted Nugent.

    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to
    go into the world incapable of preventing
    violence, injury, crime, and death. How
    feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness.
    How unnatural. How cheap.
    How cowardly. How pathetic."--Ted Nugent.

    I like his style.:D
     
  11. sctman800

    sctman800 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Messages:
    513
    Location:
    Westville, Ill.
    At work tonight a co-worker watched THE 500 CLUB today and the host Pat Robertson said if someone at VT had a gun they could have saved lives. Also this would not have been murder, but stopping an evil enity. That is not a quote but the main theme of what was said. Jim.
     
  12. sm

    sm member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    28,389
    Location:
    Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
    Back off this cop bashing please.

    WE do have LEOs on this board, that have made it very clear, and have asked we ALL work to get legislation changed and enacted to adhere to COTUS and not Tyranny.

    Enough of this "Us vs Them" - and not just cops and J.Q. Public, other topics as well.

    Now many talk a good game, but pee a steady stream down britches legs when faced with a situation.

    I was not at VT, I do not know who-all did rush and took heroic actions so others could and did survive.

    We need to be Respectful to the fallen and the families of all in tragedies.
    We can learn from it, but by golly do it with honor and respect!

    If it were you or yours - you would want some honor and respect.

    WE can be ambassadors showing how dis-respectful we are to the fallen, to each other, and outsiders.
    Or
    WE can be ambassadors showing respect, honor to the fallen, each other and get some changes made to better things for JQ Public and LEOs.
     
  13. coelacanth

    coelacanth Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    455
    while I find myself in general agreement with SM.....

    I can't honestly say what I've seen here amounts to LEO bashing. Whenever an event like this takes place people cannot help but speculate on what happened and why. We cannot help but put ourselves in the situation as it is described to us and see if what we've heard makes any sense. It is in fact not a disrespectful act but one done out of empathy with the victims and their survivors. LEO's making public statements are well aware that those statements can and will be examined in the court of public opinion to determine their worth. Critique does not equal disrespect IMHO.
     
  14. GhostlyKarliion

    GhostlyKarliion Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    426
    Honestly, this "lets assume that everything everyone says is cop-bashing" routine has got to stop.

    The officer in question, Sgt. Allan Baron, is wrong. No apologies, no retractions, and no sugar coating about that, he is simply wrong - end of question.

    At least, that is my opinion, and unless someone gives me some overwhelming evidence to the contrary it isn't likely to change.

    The remarks made by THR members about what he said are within the scope of personal opinion and have a definite place here, this is a place for discussion.

    This "US Vs. THEM" mentality is not "WE vs. COPS" but rather "WE VIGILANT Vs. THE NONVIGILANT"
    "WE BRAVE Vs. THE COWARDLY"
    "WE HONORABLE Vs. THE DISHONORABLE"

    I know police officers who live their mandate to Protect and Serve, they like the idea of people carrying firearms, they like the idea of people defending themselves, and dare I say it, they like the idea of an armed citizen stopping a crime.

    I have never checked demographics but I'd be willing to bet those I know are not flukes, I’d bet there are more out there, many more.

    I am an ordained Minister, a street Preacher, a devout Christian, would I shoot an armed attacker to protect the lives of the innocent? Absolutely, 100% of the time strangely enough if it is just me on the line I probably would not be trying to kill him, but if there is imminent danger to others, then I would act to stop the threat in the shortest amount of time possible.

    I am really getting tired of hearing this stuff about "cops who tell people to become victims are just doing their job" no they are not, they are just trying to get people killed. Maybe it's some officer’s jobs now to get people killed, but it sure as hell isn't acceptable, on any level.
     
  15. chris in va

    chris in va Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2005
    Messages:
    6,097
    Location:
    Louisville KY
    I highly suspect in a real situation most people would not have a coordinated attack against someone armed and shooting. Wishful thinking.

    Our instincts take over and they start yelling GET AWAY or HIDE.
     
  16. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN Marines raising the left-leaning Pisa tower.

    Joined:
    May 27, 2006
    Messages:
    6,632
    Location:
    Calirado
    All right, I've been wanting to say this for a while.

    So I will, and the devil take the consequences.

    Soon after 9/11 I recommended to our Security Department Chief that they issue paint masks to the people in our company --this, in light of the very high dangers associated with all the dust coming from collapsing buildings.

    You remember the video of the guy running down the street towards the camera with an enormous dust cloud rolling along after him, a la the boulder chasing Indiana Jones in the "Raiders" movie?

    You know what the reaction was?

    "Issuing masks would only create panic among the employees."

    So some time later, after another one of those rampages among an unarmed group of people, I figured it might be a good idea for our Security Department to set up a little training, at least in the form of recommendations on our company's internal web site, as to what to do in a case of something like the VT tragedy (although this was several years before.)

    I figured if we all knew a code word or phrase for the brave among us to instantly and simultaneously rush an attacker in these situations, a couple would get hurt and possibly killed, but lives would undoubtedly be saved.

    Guess what I did.

    I decided to make no more waves which would probably only reflect on the wimpishness of our Security Department and to therefore keep my mouth shut.

    But for me, what the hell, I'm 67, lived a good life, but if I, alone, unarmed (guns stirctly not allowed there), woiuld rush such an assailant, it might encourage others to follow me, even if I am the first to go down in a crumpled heap.

    Maybe. Maybe not. But to echo someone else in a previous post, I sure as hell ain't going to die on my knees.

    And pee sure as hell ain't going to be running down my pants.

    LET'S ROLL!
     
  17. Lucky

    Lucky Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,919
    Location:
    Calgary, near Rocky Mountains - Canada
    In a crisis there is no organization right away, just from crisi I've seen. Many just dazed or confused. The one who helps you might be an 80-year old lady, while a 30-year old man freezes. They say it's all about your personality, my great great aunt fought off two young muggers, alone, in a park. She got thrown down (or fell, while swinging her walker) and broke a hip, but kept her purse. That is a decent person. That's the type of person Allan Baron despises.

    Just a suggestion, but saying a code word might just get the guy to focus on you as you stand up, while you'd be better off rushing him or running away if the maniac is focusing elsewhere at that moment.

    If anyone else was thinking, they'd demonstrate it by helping, if they don't help then they are too 'out of it' to hear a code-word anyway.




    SM - I think you are wrong. Just like Allan Baron is wrong. If you're white, does that mean I'm bashing white people? Of course not. You are either using a straw-man argument, or are very confused to the point that you can't distinguish individuals from tremendously vast groups. (or you yourself are stereotyping all police officers to be as despicable as Allan Baron - shame)

    Since it's not acceptable to use curse words, a more detailed description of Allan Baron is "egotist", "elitist", "disconnected from reality", "heartless", "arrogant", "two-faced", "busy-body", "hypocrite".
     
  18. paramedic70002

    paramedic70002 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    402
    Location:
    Franklin, VA
    (Not LEO bashing)

    The police are the only ones professional enaough to save your ass when you're staring down the barrel of a gun.
     
  19. Mr White

    Mr White Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,207
    Location:
    Central PA
    I wasn't bashing all cops, just that particular one. I have the utmost respect for LE in general, but just as in any profession, they have their share of idiots.
     
  20. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    6,717
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    The good Baptist leader is right, but I can't sit here after the fact and say what someone "should" have done under the circumstances they were facing at that moment. That's why it's good to think about unlikely, but possible, scenarios ahead of time.

    Even the passengers of "Let's roll!" fame on 9/11 didn't react instantly. They had an hour or more to analyse the situation and form a plan. Today, passengers would react to that same situation more quickly, but I can't say how quickly we could/would react in a different situation.
     
  21. junyo

    junyo Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    719
    It's one thing to say "they should have rushed him" in the abstract, and quite another thing to be the first guy facing the Glock with nothing but bare fists. I think once the ball start rolling, plenty of people would follow the first guy in, but it's really hard to be that, pretty much guaranteed to die, guy. I like to think I'd chuck a chair at the guy and wade in, but how many shots does he get in if you've got to rush him from any kind of distance? That's why consistently, one guy with a gun can control ridiculously large groups of unarmed people; Alvin York and 7 Americans captured and marched 132 Germans back to his lines, Holocaust Jews crammed in ghettos or camps out numbered their guards by a decent factor but rarely attempted to violently resist.

    There's an old John Wayne movie where he's confronted by a guy of bad guys. He draws his gun and shoots the pistol out of one bad guy's hand, then is in a standoff with the rest of them. One of them thinks to rush him and says something like 'He's only got 5 bullets left!' To which Wayne replies, 'So which 5 of you want 'em?' Nobody volunteers, and the bad guys back down. For most people, until you think there's a good chance that you (you personally, not the guy next to you) are dead anyway, you're doing that math.

    Keep in mind, I'm not advocating passivity, just dissecting it, and appreciating why a gun is a heck of an equalizer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2007
  22. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN Marines raising the left-leaning Pisa tower.

    Joined:
    May 27, 2006
    Messages:
    6,632
    Location:
    Calirado
    Lucky:

    I realize I'd be the first hit, but...

    junyo:

    ..that's why I noted that I was 67 years old. I'm prepared for it. I don't want to "throw myself on the grenade," but I will if it looks like that's what's called for.

    I guess really what I'm saying is that the wimpisheness demonstrated by my company's Security Department probably goes through a lot of Security Deprtments/Managemenmt types: "Don't get the employees upset with things like that." Yet a little preparation, a little planning, and things could easily turn out better, with fewer casualties.

    Too many people live in a Diznee world.
     
  23. sb350hp

    sb350hp Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2007
    Messages:
    195
    Location:
    Oregon
    Just as in nature itself we have two instincs, FIGHT or FLIGHT. Unfortunatley in this PC atmosphere we are trained not to defend our selves, family or country for that matter. We are taught to comply and negotiate in a diplomatic manner. So with the constant bombarment from the liberal left, shools, and press FLIGHT has become the natural reaction for most of society.

    Until we begin teaching in the mainstream that the gov't will not and cannot always protect you and that you must learn basic survival methods, nothing will change.

    We need more shepherds in society and less sheeple.
     
  24. PrimaryB

    PrimaryB Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    110
    I work at a top 10 land grant university. Last year the ratio of students was 6 women to 1 male reportedly living on campus. When people suggest "they should have rushed him", who is "they"?

    This has been a hot topic at work but keep in mind the conversation was amongst males who are in their 40's and up. Whole different mentality that comes with age. Besides I personally have not been in a situation such as this and I doubt anyone else has. If you have then please elaborate on your experiences.

    If I were a parent of one of the VT victims the last thing I would want to read or hear was a comment by a progunner that my daughter or son didn't react in the eyes of such, appropriately. It would ANGER me but unfortunately for some parents the focus would change from the evil person to gun ownership.

    Talk is cheap. I don't mean any insult to anyone but please reflect on your own past. Remember the time you didn't stand up to the school yard bully? The last time you did something you didn't want to do because of peer pressure. How about the last time you took 4 rounds rounds to the chest to stop an assailant?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page