The 10 Commandments & Alabama

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The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed.

Using the above draft, I'd have to say that my "interpretation" is right on. Of course, no interpretation is really necessary since it's a pretty darned clear statement!
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." No such law has been passed and it strains credulity to think that a very generic religous symbol embraced by literally hundreds of religions is an "establishment" of one particular sect as a state religion.

As for the second amendment, again; nothing changes. You can't compel someone to bear arms if it infringes on their first amendment right to "freely exercise" their religion.

It's the same argument - you can't use one right to "trump" and infringe on another right.

Keith
 
If government funds something then they have clearly "established" it.
Bingo. Why? It has effectively established it despite no official proclamation of establishment.

Funding is a part of establishement -- a subset of establishment. It is thus forbiddn

All I am saying is that ALL the subsets of establishment are similarly forbidden -- this includes promotion or joining (failing to separate).

Moore was promoting.
Moore was joining.
Actually, come to think of it, Moore was funding (the rotunda, the guys who cleaned the monument, the guys who guarded it from vandalism, etc.)
 
Okay, I'm going to jump in here.

To preface this post, I reference my sig line: I am most certainly a Christian.

Okay, now to the point: The monument shouldn't be there. Why? Not because Judge Moore placed it. Not because of what it is. Not because of where it is. But the combination. Because Judge Moore placed a religious monument on public grounds. Not his private office in the public building, but the public grounds of the building.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Here we have a bit of confusion on the operative terms.
Congress shall make no law: Under the 14th Amendment, this is extended to all three branches of government, and to State and local government in addition to Federal.
respecting an establishment of religion: It doesn't say "establishing religion" it says "respecting an establishment of religion."
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof: the third piece, I have no specific commentary on this part by itself.

The way this portion of the amendment is worded it can make two separate sentences: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" and "Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion."

Taken with the 14th amendment, the first says that the judge, while acting in the power of his office, cannot legally place that monument where he did. If this is the case, then yes, the federal government can, as directed under the 14th amendment, order the removal of the monument.

If he did it while acting as a private citizen, then he violated a separate set of laws regarding the use of public property. Just as if he erected a statue of a giant penis on the courthouse lawn. And if this is the case, then the federal government has no place in this case

The second part does not prevent the government from restricting religious practices with secular laws; it prevents the government from prohibiting religious practices. This means that, although xyz religion says it's necessary to sacrifice a human female virgin, the government can still enforce it's laws prohibiting murder by interrupting such a religious practice.

Finally, there is nothing there about the separation of Church and State except in the ways already covered. Quite simply, the government cannot pass laws, whether by legislative action, court order, or executive order, regarding religion or prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

For example, the government (whether federal, state, or local) cannot prohibit prayer in school. They *can* prohibit a specific prayer being broadcast in school, but it is not illegal to provide a time for students to pray as they wish, or even to have organized prayer in school if, for example, there is a room for Christian prayer, and another room for Islamic prayer, and another for Buddhist meditation, and another for non-practicioners, in addition to there being a method for additional rooms to be set up for religious practices not mentioned above. They cannot restrict the prayer time to a specific religion or handful of religions, but they are allowed to hold prayer so long as it is not interfering with the purpose of the school system: to educate the public.

Similarly, there can be religious monuments in courthouses, so long as they are not interfering with the purpose of the courthouse and that there are methods in place for other religions to be represented in a similar manner.

Likewise, the military is allowed to employ and train chaplains for religious ceremonies. However, if they do so they have the obligation to ensure that they are not restricting religous practice by providing Jewish, Christian, Islamic, and Buddhist chaplains should the need arise. They also are not allowed to force anyone to attend these services or to make use of their offers.

This is different from the gov't prohibiting the firing of arms because one operating definition for the verb "to bear" is " To possess and use, as power; to exercise." In other words, "to keep and bear arms" includes the useage of those arms by firing them.
 
respecting an establishment of religion: It doesn't say "establishing religion" it says "respecting an establishment of religion."
Brian, I've pointed that out about 20 times, and I seem to have been ignored.
Similarly, there can be religious monuments in courthouses, so long as they are not interfering with the purpose of the courthouse
As you say, Moore violated this when he placed/defended the monument with the express purpose of promoting a religion.
 
Bingo. Why? It has effectively established it despite no official proclamation of establishment.

Hello? Government can not fund something unless they pass an appropriations bill - a law! "Government shall pass no law...." Remember?

All I am saying is that ALL the subsets of establishment are similarly forbidden -- this includes promotion or joining (failing to separate).

Sorry, your house of cards is undermined by the earlier lapse in logic.

Keith
 
Congress shall make no law: Under the 14th Amendment, this is extended to all three branches of government, and to State and local government in addition to Federal.

Yup, no argument there. The state is bound by the same prohibtions and the citizens have the same rights in all the states.

respecting an establishment of religion: It doesn't say "establishing religion" it says "respecting an establishment of religion."

Uh no, it says "Congress SHALL MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion.

Keith
 
Mike Irwin

So far, as far as I have been able to determine, only Christians have been flocking to his defense. No Jews, no Muslims. Although the 10 Commandments are essential to their religious dogma, there's no role or room for them in Judge Moore's narrowly defined world.

You obviously haven’t been following this case very closely.

commandments1LR.jpg

Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore receives an embroidered copy of the Ten Commandments from orthodox Jewish Rabbi Yehuda Levin, right, at the State Judicial Building in Montgomery, Ala., Friday.
AP


Story:
Commandments fight turns to high court

Moore has not answered questions from the news media since making his pledge, but did come out to the steps of the judicial building Friday, where a Jewish rabbi presented him with an embroidery made in Israel that shows the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai.

Yehuda Levin said he represents two national organizations of orthodox Jewish rabbis. Levin congratulated Moore for ''his struggle to keep us rooted in American values'' and recited a short prayer in Hebrew.

Other stories on Jewish support for Moore’s cause:

Commandments represent universal morals, rabbi says

TWO MAJOR RABBINICAL GROUPS SUPPORT "TEN COMMANDMENTS" JUDGE ROY MOORE

Rabbi tells Moore Jews support display

A tale of two Rabbis

Rabbi Jonathan Miller does not speak for all Jews

10 Commandments showdown tonight

And this is not the only place that Jews and Christians have come together on the subject of the Ten Commandments:

Ten Commandments monument can stay on Texas Capitol grounds

Of course not all Jews agree, either.

AJCONGRESS CALLS ON ALABAMA HIGH COURT TO KEEP RELIGION OUT OF JUDGE'S COURTROOM

AMERICAN JEWISH CONGRESS APPLAUDS DECISION ON COURTROOM DISPLAY OF TEN COMMANDMENTS
 
Hello? Government can not fund something unless they pass an appropriations bill - a law! "Government shall pass no law...." Remember?
The method of funding was not in question. What are you talking about?

Sorry, your house of cards is undermined by the earlier lapse in logic.
What lapse of logic? You merely made a non sequtur statement about funding requiring appropriation.
 
The method of funding was not in question. What are you talking about?

We are talking about the establishment clause of the first amendment. Government can not pass a law respecting an establishment of religion, and a funding bill is a law.

Keith
 
Yep, and official actions of government agents are "laws" when it comes to constitutional tests -- especially (as in this case) when the executive and judiciary are included.

The executive is included? Must have missed that. But of course, putting a rock in the court house foyer is not establishing a religion any more than hanging a picture of the "official" state Rabbi in the foyer would be.

Keith
 
You all need to examine your premise.

The problem here is something called "Cognitive Dissonance". All psycho-babble aside, it simply means you've started with a faulty premise and then tried to marshall arguments to defend that premise. Each layer in your defense takes you further from the basic truth.

Somehow, you've gotten it into your head that any government association with religion is "agin the constitution".

This parallels the liberal take on the 2nd amendment - that the first (militia) clause somehow negates the second (shall not be infringed) clause. It doesn't work that way! You can't limit a civil liberty by quoting another liberty (or power ) from the same sentence!

Forget all the tortous legal arguments and later rulings - go back to the simple, bald sentence in the 1st Amendment and read it. It's talking about establishing a national religion (or state of Alabama religion, in the present case).
This judge may be every kind of religious bigot, a dog hater and a lousy tipper too, but putting a religious symbol in the court house is not passing a law OR establishing a religion!

Slow down, start over...

Keith
 
Keith, you objected to my little bit about making a distinguishment between "establishing a religion" and "respectingan establishment of religion" in my earlier post by commenting that it states "Congress shall make no law respecting..."

Unfortunately, immediately above the portion to which you took objection, I had, in bold print "Congress shall make no law." Also, immediately below the section, I combined the two to state "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Further, by the 14th amendment, this restriction is extended to include judicial and executive actions, not simply legistative actions.

The problem isn't with Judge Moore freely exercising his religious preference. It's with the resources he chooses to use in order to exercise that preference. Unfortunately, the public courthouse is not available to him for that purpose to the amount of exclusion he was/is trying for. The courthouse is a place of law, and although the free exercise of religion is permitted there, it is not permitted to a degree which would interfere with the practice of law, and secondly it is not permitted to interfere in any way with another's free exercise of religion in the same space, again so long as it is not intefering with the practice of law there.

I agree with you that the 1st Amendment, like the 2nd, should be taken at face value and that the government should have no legal say in matters of religion. However, the government does have the power to prevent such a monument from appearing on public grounds, just like it has the power to prevent a monument glorifying the massacre of the Jews from showing up on the courthouse grounds.

I also disagree with cuchulainn regarding the total and utter separation of church of state, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.
 
Also, as has been pointed out (and ignored) a number of times in this thread, the 1st amendment doesn't read "Congress shall make no law establishing a religion" it reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Those are two very different things. The second includes the first, but also covers additional things. For instance, it is unconstitutional for the government to make churches exempt from property taxes. They get away with it because they do not discriminate between Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or Aztec churches.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an establishment of religion. If the government said "LDS doesn't have to pay income tax" then that would be a law respecting an establishment of religion, even though it is not a law establishing a religion.

Likewise, permitting a judge to use public land (and even more specifically, public land which has the primary purpose of deciding on matters of law) to build a monument to a couple religions, while not permitting Joe Cleetus from building a shooting range on the same land, is a legal action respecting an establishment of religion, even though it is not establishing a religion.
 
The executive in this case would be the governor of Alabama. I am unclear on how he is associated with this case?
I didn't mean to imply that. Only the judiciary is involved in this case. (The executive nonetheless is covered by the 1st).
Somehow, you've gotten it into your head that any government association with religion is "agin the constitution".
No one has made the an "any association" argument. I and most others have gone to great pains to distinguish between this (actions in official capacity) vs. "any association."
 
It's with the resources he chooses to use in order to exercise that preference. Unfortunately, the public courthouse is not available to him for that purpose to the amount of exclusion he was/is trying for. The courthouse is a place of law, and although the free exercise of religion is permitted there, it is not permitted to a degree which would interfere with the practice of law, and secondly it is not permitted to interfere in any way with another's free exercise of religion in the same space, again so long as it is not intefering with the practice of law there.

There are no public resources associated with this.

There is no prohibition against other religious symbols, that I'm aware of. The ten commandments are a generic symbol to several hundred (thousand?) Christian and Jewish religions and sects. As far as that goes, the Muslims also recognize Moses and his commandments in their system.

So, if the building supervisor wants to mount some Buddhist laws out there and the head janitor is some middle easterner who wants the Code of Hammarabi displayed, then Judge Moore should have no objections.

As a way to run a court house I think this display opens a real can of worms. It's just not unconstitutional.

Keith
 
No one has made the an "any association" argument. I and most others have gone to great pains to distinguish between this (actions in official capacity) vs. "any association."


Hmmm... Maybe you need to go back and read your posts. We've gone from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." to some pretty broad "interpetations".

Keith
 
Hmmm... Maybe you need to go back and read your posts. We've gone from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." to some pretty broad "interpetations".
We've gone from

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

to (via the 14th)

No branch or level of government -- or its agents -- shall take action in an official capacity respecting the establishment of religion.

I have never said anything beyond that.
 
Actually, there are public resources at use here. The courthouse and the courthouse lawn are public resources.

And no, it is not unconstitutional. But it is illegal. Because if a monument of similar size were erected honoring Loki, Buddha, and Allah, it would clearly be a misuse of public land.

And likewise, I cannot legally go build a two-ton monument to Apollo in the middle of the university campus, Judge Moore should not be allowed to build one to God on the courthouse lawn.

Now, if it were an innocuous as a small plaque with the Ten Commandments on it, say, just to the left of the main entrance, I don't think anyone should have any issue with it. However, both the size and placement, and the fact it was a private venture, not controllable by voters, are part of the problem here.
 
Likewise, permitting a judge to use public land (and even more specifically, public land which has the primary purpose of deciding on matters of law) to build a monument to a couple religions, while not permitting Joe Cleetus from building a shooting range on the same land, is a legal action respecting an establishment of religion, even though it is not establishing a religion.

Well, the Declaration of Independence is absolutely rife with religious references and dogma - yet, this unconstitutional piece of trash is displayed in the rotunda of the national archives building! Are you shocked?

Quick - somebody call a federal judge!

Keith
 
No branch or level of government -- or its agents -- shall take action in an official capacity respecting the establishment of religion.

And that quote is from... what? And what would that have to do with the 1st or the 14th amendments?

You can't just make up a constitutional "reason" to prohibit something you don't like.
NOTHING in the constitution, the Bill of Rights, or later amendments, says anything about "any action" respecting the establishment of religion.

Go back to the original premise - read the 1st Amendment, etc, etc, etc...

Keith
 
And likewise, I cannot legally go build a two-ton monument to Apollo in the middle of the university campus,

You could if you were the dean of the college and somebody was willing to foot the bill. In fact, we have Greek statues all over the damned place and many of them have been paid for with public funds!

Statues! Of Gods and Goddesses!!!

Where is the ACLU? Is it only Christian symbols that are prohibited?

Keith
 
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