The .38/.357 Lineage.

[DougDubya]

A productive discussion, from a closed thread. Let's continue it here.

kamerer wrote:

Yes, the lineage was:

.38 Short Colt
.38 Long Colt
.38 Special
.357 Magnum

I believe the .38 S&W was from the branch of the .38/200 British service cartridge and .38 New Police (jsut a Colt re-name of the .38 S&W, I think).

I was reading about this just last week. An EXCELLENT place to get quick data on a cartridge, specs, history and development is Wikipedia. I don't know who has been making it a mission to get it's "ammo" entries into such professional shape, but it's darn handy.

I will now go look into the lineage of the .38/200 and .38 S&W - I'm less sure about that.

Okay. This is a good start.

I am very certain that the .38/200 was developed from the .38 S&W because the light charge produced a slow, light bullet that didn't have the oomph that the British military wanted after trading down from the .455 Ely (I believe that was the Webley's official caliber). After experimentation, armorers decided to mount a 200 grain bullet on top of the original .38 S&W charge.

However, since then, the heaviest .38 Special/.357 loading I've seen is 180 grains.

Continue discussion, if you may.

 

[Jim March]

If you reload, Penn Bullets has a .357 230gr slug called the "Thunderhead".

Basically "Satan's wadcutter".

Whoa.

 

[coelacanth]

Winchester used to load a 200 gr. RN in .38 special. . .

it was wonderfully accurate in my revolvers but shot a little high in the fixed sight specimens. I don't think they currently offer that load but it should be fairly easy to duplicate.

 

[Old Fuff]

Smith & Wesson introduced the .38 S&W cartridge in 1876, along with a new top-break revolver, which was variously known as the, .38 Single Action, 1st Model or Model No. 2, 1st model. Collectors often call it the Baby Russian. It quickly became popular, and over the years it was used in various top-break and hand ejector revolvers offered by many makers, including but not limited to: Smith & Wesson, Colt, Iver Johnson and Herrington & Richardson.

The standard loading consisted of a 145 grain lead round nose bullet @ 745 FPS out of a 4-inch barrel. During the 1930's through early 40's Winchester offered a "Super Police" load consisting of a 200 grain LRNB @ about 680 FPS, for use in hand ejector revolvers only.

During the late 1920's the British adopted this load for use in their new Enfield (and later Webley) service revolvers. During World War Two The U.S. Army ordered a load consisting of a 125 grain jacketed bullet @ 625 FPS, out of a 4-inch barrel - supposedly for use in S&W .38-200 and Iver Johnson top-break snubbies purchased by the O.S.S.

To avoid mention of their competitor in Springfield, MA., Colt had a similar cartridge named the .38 Colt New Police, which was fully interchangeable with the S&W counterpart. However neither of these is interchangeable with other .38 cartridges, the .38 Special in particular.

So who needs Wikipedia?

 

[Ceemack]

Didn't S&W offer an earlier .38 cartridge with a heel-type bullet and a .38"-diameter driving band, in the same style as the .44 "American"? I thought that was the reason the .38 Special was called a .38 when the bullet diameter was only .357.

 

[Cosmoline]

However, since then, the heaviest .38 Special/.357 loading I've seen is 180 grains.

I've got some locally made commercial .357 rounds with 200 grain slugs. Penetration is very impressive on the spruce trees, though the round ain't moving very fast of course. 180 probably gets you a little better ballistic balance.

I believe you're right about the .38/200 S&W. It wasn't really a new cartridge just a heavy loading of the old one. I don't believe it's safe to shoot the .38/200's through some of the old lemon squeezers.

 

[DougDubya]

Jim March - 230 grains? Satan's Wadcutter? Well, now we know the caliber for the Antichrist.

Cosmoline - I wouldn't be happy with a .38/200 in a lemon squeezer. It just begs to be run through an Enfield or Webley, though. I'm also not surprised that a mid-velocity, but heavy and solid round has plenty of penetration. 200 grains at 1000 feet per second sure as heck isn't anything to sneeze at. That combination in .45 ACP, sponsored by Lee Jurras, created an inenviable fight-stopper, which avoided overpenetration thanks to the parachute-like mouth of the Super Vel Hollowpoint.

Interesting - I keep reading about Cowboy action shooters utilizing .38 S&W loads in their modern .357 adjustable and fixed sight revolvers. Are those merely .38 S&W equivalent loads? Or has someone been modifying the brass?

 

[cherryriver]

A few years back, I ordered a box of 300 200gr conical-nosed lead bullets from National Bullet, intending to use them in my Webley MkIV. I never did, winding up using Berry's 158 round-noses instead.
Later, I discovered the box on a shelf and tossed them into .38 Special cases with a charge of Unique. I'm sorry I can't recall the amount, but it was a middling load according to the old Alliant broadsheet load chart (priceless!) showing just about every powder/bullet combination there could be- including Bullseye in .357! Full power loads!
Anyway, I put the 200gr NBCs through an old Colt Official Police, where they chronoed at about 650fps, thereby making "minor" power factor easily. The recoil was moderate and the accuracy was really excellent. I'd be tempted to shoot more of them if I dared order any more, but I'm back to casting, anyway.
On the other subject, Doug, I suspect you're referring to using .38 Short Colt loads in .38/.357 guns for ICORE, USPSA, and (possibly) IDPA. Positive loading and ejection, especially ejection, are the big deals there.
Go to the Brian Enos forum and cruise around the revolver section for a while and see what I mean.
I've always planned to use the SC brass, too, but haven't gotten around to it.
.38 S&W is not generally compatible with .38 Special chambers.
Bill

 

[Old Fuff]

Didn't S&W offer an earlier .38 cartridge with a heel-type bullet and a .38"-diameter driving band, in the same style as the .44 "American"?

No. The earlier Smith & Wesson tip-up revolvers were chambered in .22 and .32 Rim Fire. However the .32 Long and Short Colt, .38 Long and Short Colt and .41 Long and Short Colt all started life with heeled bullets.

 

[Deanimator]

If you reload, Penn Bullets has a .357 230gr slug called the "Thunderhead".

Magnus makes a traditional 200gr. .357 LRN. Mid-South has them.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00051507

 

[DougDubya]

Many thanks Cherryriver!

Let's see - 200 grains at 650 fps... 187 foot pounds of energy, but momentum factor is 130. Soft...

 

[cherryriver]

Doug-
Most of those 200 grainers were launched at plate racks, at 35 yards.
My beater old OP's barrel needs a little turning and I had to hold on the right edge to get them, but they sure put those plates down right smartly.
Bill

 

[Seven For Sure]

DT makes a 200 gr. 357 load that clocks 1200 fps from a 4" tube. I have some but prefer the 180's which actually have a larger meplat. The 180's do 1300.

 

[Old Fuff]

cherryriver:

My beater old OP's barrel needs a little turning ...

Be sure there is no play between the crane and frame, or you are risking a cracked barrel at the forcing cone when the barrel and chamber are not concentric.

 

[DougDubya]

I was thinking soft recoil, Cherryriver - not soft on the other end.

(Then again, how many people have been attacked by plates?)

-
Referencing the scene from Karate Kid 3 -
"Wow, can you do that, Mister Miyagi?"
"Dunno. Never fought a log before."

 

[Old Fuff]

A slow moving but heavy bullet with a blunt nose works wonders on plates, and does so with modest recoil. The .38 Special/200 grain loading also had a fairly good reputation as a fight stopper - much more so then the usual 158 grain police load.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

What about the 38/44 Hi Speed that fits between the special and the magnum?