.38 S&W vs. .38-200??

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Cosmoline

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I'm confused. I've heard that a number of S&W "Victory" models were chambered for .38-200. I've also read that this was simply a 200 grain bullet variation on the .38 S&W. Would these revolvers have any special markings on them, or just say .38 S&W?
 
38/200 was the British loading for this revolver so it would probably have British proof marks. They were supplied to the Brits on lend lease program
and many of them were shipped back over here after the war. I have one
with the Brit marks. Shoots real good and I load it with 158 gr. bullets,
the same as I use in 38 Special. Actually the 38 S&W is a little larger
diameter bullet but the .357 works for me.
 
Apparently the 200 grain bullet was the weight of the original lead bullet when the round was developed in the 1920s & 1930s.

After concerns about Hague Accord violations, the bullet was changed to a jacketed round that apparently weighed about 30 grains less.
 
Smith & Wesson introduced the .38 S&W cartridge in 1876 as a round to be used in top-break pocket pistols. A 145 or 146 grain bullet would go a modest 580 FPS out of a short 3 ¼†barrel. Today’s tactical types would look down their noses at that, but it was considered an adequate self-defense load during the latter 19th to middle 20th centuries.

In 1905 Colt introduced a .38 cartridge they called the “Colt New Police.†There was no difference between it and the S&W round except the bullet had a flatter nose. The whole thing was a ruse so Colt wouldn’t have to mark their products with anything that referred to their arch competitor in Springfield, MA. Colt did however, offer the first hand-ejecting revolver to use this cartridge, and they were stronger then S&W’s top-breaks. By 1917 Smith & Wesson had introduced their own hand-ejector “Regulation Police†model chambered in .38 S&W.

Sometime during the late 1920s or early 1930s a 200grain bullet version was marketed by Winchester - called the .38 S&W Super Police. Out of a 4 or 4 ¼†barrel it went around 680 FPS, and was not recommended for use in older top-break’s.

Following World War One the British War Office started to develop a smaller, lighter revolver the take the place of the famous .455 Webley’s. Someone came up with the idea that a heavy .38 caliber bullet moving slowly would tumble on impact and have stopping power equal to the .455 cartridge. This would, to say the least, seem unlikely - but the Brits. bought the plan. By 1927 they had cut Webley out of the picture and developed their own .38 revolver with intentions of making it at their arsenal at Enfield. The cartridge was nothing more or less then the .38 S&W 200 grain “Super Police†load by another name.

When World War Two came along they soon found themselves in deep trouble. The Germans were planning an invasion and the anti-gun laws they’d passed during the pre-war years had done nothing to build up a domestic handgun industry.

So in desperation they contracted with S&W to build their famous 1905 hand ejector/Military & Police model chambered to use the same cartridge being used in Enfield or Webley revolvers. By then Webley was back on board and making revolvers as fast as they could.

Smith & Wesson (and later Colt) marked these revolvers “38-200†to separate them from those that used the .38 Special round. Be that as it may the Enfield, Webley, S&W and Colt revolvers marked “38-200†all were intended to use the .38 S&W cartridge with bullet weights up to 200 grains. After lead bullets were outlawed for use in warfare the English changed to a 178 or 179 grain full jacketed bullet. All other specifications remained the same.

During the war, for some unknown reason the OSS ordered a run of .38 S&W ammunition using a 125 grain full-jacketed bullet going 625 FPS. I have no idea why the “spooks†wanted this but the fact is, next to the British and their Commonwealth the OSS bought more 38-200 S&W revolvers then any other buyer.

The .38-200 marking was restricted to these military revolvers made during World War Two. All other S&W commercial revolvers using this round were marked “38 S&W CTG.â€

One thing to look out for. After the war thousands of these revolvers were imported into the United States. Many of them were rechambered to .38 Special. This doesn’t work. Consider a rechambered cylinder to be ruined.
 
The Winchester-Western 200 grain "Super Police" load was a .38 Special.
And was still listed in the catalog and on the box as such well into the 1980s.

I found out early that with my old Nikon F2, in bright sunshine, it was fairly east to get a "stopped in mid air" photo using a Colt Detective Special. I shot one into a phone book once and had it bounce back and almost hit me. :what:

I don't think Winchester, Western, Remington or Peters ever marketed a 200gr .38 S&W. If they did I have never been able to find one. Of course I could be wrong.


Maybe they should load the 200 gr bullet in a .38 S&W or Short Colt... they could call it the .38 Colibri. :evil:
 
One thing common tween the 38-200 and 200gr .38 Special Police loads.

They wouldn't do much damage to the skin of a real car door. (60s)

Sam
 
Blues Bear:

Winchester used the "Super Police" tag on several different cartridges, including the .38 S&W when loaded with a 200 grain bullet. It wasn't very "super" as Sam pointed out, as the muzzle velocity was only around 700 FPS out of a 4 inch barrel. Even so, it was a popular carry load for those using hand-ejector style revolvers chambered in .38 S&W during the 1930's and 40's.

I brought it up on this thread because it was the basis for Webley's development of their Mark IV .38 revolver and the cartridge used therein. This in turn was the cartridge used by the Brits. during World War Two in Enfield, Webley and S&W 38-200 revolvers. They also got a few Colts, built on their Official Police/Commando model - but not enough to be of consequence.

It should be remembered that Smith & Wesson didn't make a small, compact snubby in .38 Special until the introduction of the Chief Special (later model 36) in 1950.
 
The .38 S&W did indeed come with a lead Super Police 200 grain load. My grandfather had a couple of boxes of it for an old copy of a top-break S&W by Iver Johnson.

I remember the boxes well.

And, yes, they also had a .38 Special version with that type bullet.

Lone Star
 
Good posting from Old Fuff.

There is one more interesting sidelight to the S&W relationship with the British. In 1939, S&W was nearly bankrupt when the British approached them with a request to make a 9mm semi-auto rifle for them. What was really wanted was an SMG, which the British got later with the STEN, but what S&W turned out was an expensive gun, milled out of solid steel and about as heavy as an M1 rifle (8 lbs. 4 oz. without ammo).

The 1940 Light Rifle (which was S&W's name for it) could not pass the 5000 round endurance test in spite of many redesigns and tries. There were two models, the Mark I and the Mark II, with about 1000 of the former and 200 of the latter being accepted by the British. But the British had paid S&W a million dollars (equivalent to 30 million or more today) in advance and considering that they had little to show for it, they demanded their money back. Of course S&W didn't have the money, having spent it keeping the company afloat and trying to develop the rifle. So Carl Hellstrom, in his first action with S&W, got the British to accept, in lieu of a refund, a product S&W did know how to make, revolvers.

Specifically, S&W agreed to provide their Military and Police model 1905, chambered for .38 S&W, which was the same case dimensions as the British service cartridge. At the time, the M&P was not made in that caliber, so barrel and cylinder changes were required.

Production began on March 11, 1940, with the first revolvers of the British contract being, caliber aside, identical to the current commercial M&P's. The British even accepted some in .38 Special as well, which were taken from stock. Later, as production short cuts were taken, notably skipping the checkering and the S&W emblem in the grips, and the guns were Parkerized. The same gun was later provided to the U.S. in .38 Special. Those guns and guns purchased for the British by the U.S. under Lend Lease were marked "U.S. Property". That marking is not present on guns purchased directly by the British.

In early 1942, S&W was nearing the one million mark for the M&P serial numbers, but their numbering machine could handle only six digits. They considered an "A" prefix, but some advertising genius came up with the idea of using "V" ("V for Victory" was a popular slogan and sign at the time), and the "Victory Model" was born. The first, numbered V1, was produced on April 24, 1942.

It is interesting to note that the term "Victory Model" thus really applies only to those guns whose serial numbers begin with "V", and that the term was never used formally in any contract. S&W later used the term in its advertising, but in all dealings with and by the government, the gun was always called the just the Military and Police or M&P model.

The M&P is now called the Model 10, but that designation was not applied until 1958 and is not correct for a WWII era gun.

Jim
 
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