Okay I own a copy of Elmer Keith's classic Sixguns and I own a really neat old book published in 1950 entitled The Practical Book of American Guns by John Craige. Both writers talk about the 38-44. Stephen Hunter has one of his characters carrying a S&W large frame revolver in 38-44 in one of his novels and I have come across references describing this round as the grandfather to the .357. Terrrific. But what are it's specs? Average velocity? Ballistics? When did this round go away? Apparantly it was still around in the fifties - long after the .357 debuted in 1935. Why did it vanish. The .38 special is still going strong (heck I own two .38's) and the 38-40 is still around so what happened to the 38-44?
The 38-44 - what happened to it?
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Mike Irwin
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The S&W .38/44 revolver was made up though the 1960s.
Ballistics for the .38/44 HD ammo were very similar to top-end +P and +P+ ammo that is out today.
I'm not sure when ammo marked specifically for the .38/44 was discontinued by the ammo companies, but it probably would have been in the 1950s when the .357 Magnum became more popular, especially with the advent of the Model 19.
Ballistics for the .38/44 HD ammo were very similar to top-end +P and +P+ ammo that is out today.
I'm not sure when ammo marked specifically for the .38/44 was discontinued by the ammo companies, but it probably would have been in the 1950s when the .357 Magnum became more popular, especially with the advent of the Model 19.
Gerald McDonald
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I always thought the 38/44 was just a 44 frame chambered for the 38 spec. I always thought it was just a hot loaded 38 spec.
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The .38/44 was Smith & Wesson's answer to Colt's .38 Super. Back in the early-middle 1930's the police sometimes found themselves up against what were called "automobile bandits." Regular .38 Specials going around 825 FPS at best, didn't do a whole lot to stop a fleeing car. Colt took it's .38 ACP cartridge (130 grain bullet/1040FPS) chambered it into a Government Model gun and called it the "Super .38." (130 grain bullet/1175FPS).
Smith & Wesson in turn hot-rodded the .38 Special cartridge and offered in their heavy "N" frame. (150 grain bullet/1200FPS.
With the introduction of the .357 Magnum (that could fire any loading in .38 Special) most lost interest in the .38/44.
However the loadings are still with us, except today we call them; Plus-P.
Smith & Wesson in turn hot-rodded the .38 Special cartridge and offered in their heavy "N" frame. (150 grain bullet/1200FPS.
With the introduction of the .357 Magnum (that could fire any loading in .38 Special) most lost interest in the .38/44.
However the loadings are still with us, except today we call them; Plus-P.
Mike Irwin
Member
Same case as the .38 Special.
Boxes were marked .38-44 with admonitions that they only be used in heavy-framed guns.
Cartridges were normally headstamped .38-44 HD or something similar.
Boxes were marked .38-44 with admonitions that they only be used in heavy-framed guns.
Cartridges were normally headstamped .38-44 HD or something similar.
justashooter
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the 38/44 used a standard case 38 in an N frame that was suitable for 44 special. the advantage was thicker cylinder wall and heavier top strap. both aided the use of loads generating unsafe pressures.
keith was a man ahead of his time. if he had a chronograph and decent pressure measuring equipment he never would have done the things he did. that being said, we do owe the 357 and 44 mag to him, and owe him mightily for the wonderful stories he wrote of the hunter/cowboy life on a rapidly shrinking frontier.
keith was a man ahead of his time. if he had a chronograph and decent pressure measuring equipment he never would have done the things he did. that being said, we do owe the 357 and 44 mag to him, and owe him mightily for the wonderful stories he wrote of the hunter/cowboy life on a rapidly shrinking frontier.
BluesBear
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The .38/44 cartridges were still listed in the Remington and Winchester catalogs until the 1970's when +p became the popular term.
Poohgyrr
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I think the round/pistol evolved into the 3.5" M27, and then again into the 686+..
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
I have a hunch he might have.
Keith had a chronograph; AFAIK, he didn't have pressure testing equipment, but he had friends at the factories who did.
As to the .38-44 (also called the .38 Special Super Speed), it was no pipsqueak, even allowing for the hype in the old ballistic tables. The figures show a 158 grain bullet at 1115 fps MV and 435 fp of ME. There was a metal penetrating 150 grain bullet at 1175 fps and 460 fp. There are no modern +P loads that come anywhere near that; the only load which reaches 1115 fps is with a 95 grain bullet, and it has only 290 fp of muzzle energy.
Jim
As to the .38-44 (also called the .38 Special Super Speed), it was no pipsqueak, even allowing for the hype in the old ballistic tables. The figures show a 158 grain bullet at 1115 fps MV and 435 fp of ME. There was a metal penetrating 150 grain bullet at 1175 fps and 460 fp. There are no modern +P loads that come anywhere near that; the only load which reaches 1115 fps is with a 95 grain bullet, and it has only 290 fp of muzzle energy.
Jim
Albert Shear
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A 1952 .38/44 Heavy Duty.
and a 1955 .38/44 Outdoorsman(same gun but with adustable sights).
and a 1955 .38/44 Outdoorsman(same gun but with adustable sights).
Hutch
Member
Ummm.... Mebbe he's talking about the .38/44 Bain and Davis. Wait a tick... Hullo, wot's this? "The 38/44 B&D dates back to 1964" (my old Hornady manual) Shows Contender data, but I KNOW I've heard of M28's being chambered in this beast. The Contender performance from the 10 inch pipe is
! 2100fps from a 158gr bullet, 2400fps from a 110!!!
! 2100fps from a 158gr bullet, 2400fps from a 110!!!Love my 38/44 Outdoorsman, it's a bit loose after having some STOUT handloads through it over the years. (think some loads for 158grn Semi-Wadcutters called for close to 11-12.0 grains of 2400, lost my old reloading manual). But even though it could stand to be tightened up and retimed, it is still a VERY accurate handgun. Mine has a sizeable amount of it's original bluing left on it, significantly more than some of the other 38/44 Outdoorsmans I've seen come across various shops.
Showing it along side my 25-3 125th year Anniversary 45LC(top)
http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/nframes/m25/25&3844.jpg
Showing it along side my 25-3 125th year Anniversary 45LC(top)
http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/nframes/m25/25&3844.jpg
I dream of owning a 38/44 Outdoorsman.
If one needs a good home, I wouldn't abuse it. It would never see 11 grains of 2400. If I want to shoot stuff like that, I have two Ruger Redhawks in .357. Tell it, the most I would ask from it is 3.5 grains of Bullseye with a 158 grain cast SWC.
If one needs a good home, I wouldn't abuse it. It would never see 11 grains of 2400. If I want to shoot stuff like that, I have two Ruger Redhawks in .357. Tell it, the most I would ask from it is 3.5 grains of Bullseye with a 158 grain cast SWC.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
BACK IN THE DAY - - -
I moved to Fort Worth in 1962 for work and college. Always interested in firearms, I was amazed that FWPD allowed their officers to carry personally owned .357 magnums, but required them to carry ONLY .38 Special round nose lead ammo.
Old man Hollis Pricer, at Knight's Gun Shop, a retired motorcycle cop hisownself, was a BIG handfun enthusiast. I was hanging around a couple of times when FWPD officers came in and wanted to "talk privately" with him. Another regular customer teased him about doing something sneaky. He gave an evil grin and explained - - They still had one wholesaler who special ordered Remington High Speed .38 Spl ammo. He went on to explain the ballistics of this round as identical to the old .38/44 loading. I believe that particular load was headstamped, "REM .38 SPL HS," and in nickel plated cases. Hollis tried to keep a few boxes of this special stuff in the back room for his pals, and sold it at regular price to them.
It was already hard to find, as .357 Mag ammo and guns were common.
RIP, "Pistol" Pricer.
Johnny
I moved to Fort Worth in 1962 for work and college. Always interested in firearms, I was amazed that FWPD allowed their officers to carry personally owned .357 magnums, but required them to carry ONLY .38 Special round nose lead ammo.
Old man Hollis Pricer, at Knight's Gun Shop, a retired motorcycle cop hisownself, was a BIG handfun enthusiast. I was hanging around a couple of times when FWPD officers came in and wanted to "talk privately" with him. Another regular customer teased him about doing something sneaky. He gave an evil grin and explained - - They still had one wholesaler who special ordered Remington High Speed .38 Spl ammo. He went on to explain the ballistics of this round as identical to the old .38/44 loading. I believe that particular load was headstamped, "REM .38 SPL HS," and in nickel plated cases. Hollis tried to keep a few boxes of this special stuff in the back room for his pals, and sold it at regular price to them.
It was already hard to find, as .357 Mag ammo and guns were common.
RIP, "Pistol" Pricer.
Johnny
Contrary to some statements, I think the old .38-44 is closer to the .38 +P+ than to +P. Those loads are what folks like me used to work up for the heavy S&W's and Colts. I still have some .38 around loaded (IIRC) with a 150 grain SWC and 15 or 16 grains of 2400 that clocked around 1300 fps out of my .38-44 HD.
Jim
Jim
Yeah, there are some old stout loads using 2400 out there.
From what I can tell the 11grn 2400 loads for the 158 are relatively close to +P loads, I've seen higher published... let's just say that when I was at a local indoor shooting range using some of the old world load data, while shooting a guy next to me stops to look over at me and asks "Is that a 44Mag?"
BIG BOOM out of that little 38 special case. Consider the old world loads for the 357Magnum that used to pound N-frames into submission with extended use, it isn't that hard to imagine that the 38special loads might be bordering right on the lower 357Mag levels.
From what I can tell the 11grn 2400 loads for the 158 are relatively close to +P loads, I've seen higher published... let's just say that when I was at a local indoor shooting range using some of the old world load data, while shooting a guy next to me stops to look over at me and asks "Is that a 44Mag?"
BIG BOOM out of that little 38 special case. Consider the old world loads for the 357Magnum that used to pound N-frames into submission with extended use, it isn't that hard to imagine that the 38special loads might be bordering right on the lower 357Mag levels.
Poohgyrr
Member
A good 38/44 would be nice. Whether in factory form, and maybe even a conversion like the one in American Handgunner a few years ago (.45 LC by Bowen I think, but it could be another 'smith.) Definitely would be a fun revolver, especially if I could document some history behind it.
I've seen peter 38 special hi-speed once in a while, its marked "for SW heavy frame revolvers" though the New Service 38 could handle it too.
Passed on the last 38/44 I saw.. it was used hard.
Passed on the last 38/44 I saw.. it was used hard.
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