The army wants YOU -- to carry "smart" guns

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From Picatinny Arsenal's procurement system:

http://procnet.pica.army.mil/cbd/rfp/03Q0428/03Q0428.htm
The US Army TACOM-ARDEC is investigating smart gun technologies, "Biometrics", in particular Dynamic Grip Recognition (DGR), as a user only system that recognizes the human unique characteristics of a specific individual. The Government is interested in building on dynamic grip recognition experience by incorporating this DGR into the handgrips of an M9 pistol. The Government is planning on negotiating sole source with NJIT under the authority of FAR 6.302-1(a)(2)(ii) Only One Responsible Source. See Note 22. This notice of intent is not a request for competitive proposals.
Funny thing about this "dynamic grip recognition" stuff -- totally unpublished outside of press releases, and everyone involved is either in PRNJ or in immediate danger of total financial collapse... :scrutiny:

- pdmoderator
 
Found the patent, too:
United States Patent 6,563,940
Recce May 13, 2003

Unauthorized user prevention device and method

Abstract

An unauthorized user prevention device and method prevents unauthorized users from operating a devices such as firearms or other types of weapons, and can also prevent access as an anti-theft device for vehicles and doors to buildings. A users initially grips a handle containing pressure sensors, and a pressure signature profile is stored that is based on hand position of the user's handgrip on the particular device as indicated by a change in pressure, pressure as a function of position on the particular device; and pressure as a function of time. A comparator compiles the pressure signature profile and compares it with profiles is storage to determined whether a match exists. Upon finding a match, a control unit releases an interlocking unit to enable the user to operate the device because he/she is authorized.

Inventors: Recce; Michael (South Orange, NJ)
Assignee: New Jersey Institute of Technology (Newark, NJ)
Appl. No.: 858682
Filed: May 16, 2001
More wierdness. Recce's background is in bioinformatics -- stuff like microarrays. Totally different from the sort of technology you'd use for "dynamic grip recognition." And he appears to be almost unknown -- no results.

:scrutiny: Can you say "stock fraud?" :scrutiny: Get a phony patent and run up the price of MetalStorm before it tanks altogether.

It'll be funny if that's all it is...

- pdmoderator
 
What is God's name is the resoning behind this idea?


Ok first thought; what if I'm entrusted with one of these pistols and I get put out of action? What if the guy next to me is unarmed and needs to use my sidearm... and can't.


This sounds like a real loser of an idea.
 
Tell ya what:

You find me a "dynamic grip recognition system" that functions for any pure-hearted human that picks it up after it has been left in the bottom of a muddy foxhole for a week or a suburban sock drawer for a year, and can (by some kind of psychic osmosis) tell an authorized good guy from an unauthorized bad guy, and I'll buy one. Tomorrow. Plus shares of stock in the company.

Until they reach that level of durability and prescience, it's back to the laboratory with you, Dexter. :scrutiny:
 
pdmoderator,

Current technology guns would likely blow up if you tried the former (mud in the barrel) and maybe the latter (belly-bbl lint.)

I've put firearms through various tortures that I would subject no electronic device I own to. If my CD player, PDA or Game Boy go tango uniform, my throat probably won't get cut. If the remote alarm-disabling key fob for my car goes belly up, I can just use the key, but if the pistol that has sat in a pocket holster for three weeks or the shotgun that's been propped in a corner for three months hiccups, I could be, like, you know, very dead. I hold certain devices to higher standards of reliability than others, and one reason that guns are so reliable is because they're so danged simple. As a matter of fact, they're more simple now, on average, than they've ever been: compared to a Glock, 870 or AR, a Luger, Winchester 97 or Garand looks like a nuclear reactor. Where other technologies have steadily become more complex, guns have steadily become more simple; this is because cell phones and laptops aren't designed to save your life after being thrown across the room, kicked off a wall and stomped into a mudhole...
 
but if the pistol that has sat in a pocket holster for three weeks or the shotgun that's been propped in a corner for three months hiccups, I could be, like, you know, very dead.
Those weren't the test conditions you stated earlier. Firearms could be reasonably be expected to function properly after such treatment. Any tronics in them in the interest of safety, efficiency, or political correctness should either (a) not degrade their reliability under those conditions or (b) be yanked out by the short wires.

What I was objecting to was testing the tronics under conditions that few, if any, of today's guns could reasonably survive. It'd be like failing kids out of the first grade for not being able to solve diff. eqs.

- pdmoderator
 
I formally have to disagree with you here Tamara..

You speak of practicality and utility.. They speak of giving the sheeple false warm fuzzies.. Two totally different things..

That said..

You need to put one of those smart guns through a glock-style torture test..

:neener:
 
I have taken 1911 and M&P swimming in salt water, rolled in the mud, gotten them pretty well radiated and they worked.

I doubt if a smart gun would work around my shop. Tween the Jacob's ladders, Tesla coil, unwise microwave expirements etc...not much does work properly out there.:D

My Kaw triple with the points cover off would screw up radar and communications.

EMF is tough to harden against.

Sam
 
pdmoderator,

I have a feeling that this might screw with the Authorized User Technology.

Those weren't the test conditions you stated earlier.

They weren't meant to be the conditions I stated earlier. In the second post I was attempting to point out how the various other electronic devices in my life would cause no more than an inconvenience if they broke or their batteries died. I can't very well tell the mugger, on the other hand, to hang on for a minute while I slap a fresh set of AAA's in my Smart Gun.

As far as the mud and sand and neglect tests, maybe you should look into the abuse that military and LE selection criteria involve these days. Lying on the bottom of a muddy foxhole for a week is a doddle compared to what these guns are expected to put up with. Also, suppose our 240 gunner, Private Jablonski, gets zapped. Is Pvt. Jones an Authorized User for his machine gun? I certainly hope so...
 
Apparently the army will only be fighting in warm weather. Otherwise those wearing gloves will be effectively disarmed. That also narrows the latitude and altitude of all future conflicts. Will their future boast be, "We own the summer."?:banghead:
 
Years ago I read a Sci Fi story which was titles, IIRC, "Arms Race". In it there was the story of an interstellar war which was being won by one planet which had superior arms technology. They weren't winning it fast enough so they 'improved' their ships, putting a subspace device or cloaking device, I forget which, on them. Well it so happened that when ever ships went into 'device' mode and returned they shifted in size and specification ever so slightly. After just a few uses each ship could no longer use any spare parts from any other ship nor the depot. There were a couple of other similar screwups and in the end the more primitive planet ended up winning the war. When it came down to fighting the new equipment just wasn't as durable, as predictable and as well developed.


Putting time in reverse we bounce back to the 1940's. Germany had the best technology in the world with Tiger Tanks, stratospheric bombers and airborne infantry. What happened to them? A bunch of guys with primitive weapons but lots of industrial capability beat the sox off of them. Reminds me of another superpower nowadays which has lots of nice toys but very few machine shops, airplane plants and tank farms. :rolleyes:
 
My favoritr part of the "gun" is it announces what round you chose i.e. it annunciates "lethal, lethal" or "pepper spray" so the perp knows when to take it away from you. what a joke. the gun is pretty funny looking, they propose a pistol that has 4 types of rounds in it , no moving parts and the rounds all stacked in the barrels (4 barels per gun).
 
Keep in mind what personal weapon the nazi's gave their grunts, k98's, and what we gave ours, garands. No Contest.

atek3
 
Putting time in reverse we bounce back to the 1940's. Germany had the best technology in the world with Tiger Tanks, stratospheric bombers and airborne infantry. What happened to them? A bunch of guys with primitive weapons but lots of industrial capability beat the sox off of them. Reminds me of another superpower nowadays which has lots of nice toys but very few machine shops, airplane plants and tank farms.


Well I have to quibble here. There can be little doubt that Nazi Germany via the efforts of various tank designers and the aerospace efforts of such men as Messerschmitt (Bf-109, Me 262a) Dr. Kurt Tank (FW-190A & D series), and Werner Von Braun (V-1 and V-2) made some fantastic weapons systems that were in many respects ahead of their time or at least the pinnacle of contemporary design, but they also managed to produce some turkeys such as tanks that were too heavy for the terrain, hard starters in intense cold, and generally fuel inefficient, as well as planes that were more mechanically complicated and less field robust than competing allied designs, not to mention generally less amenable to large scale industrial production.

There is more to weapons systems than gee-whiz technical prowess. The Soviet T-34 was a marvel of an unsophisticated tank that could be built by lesser skilled workers and driven and commanded by kulaks, which was very reliable, worked in cold weather, and could be built in a fraction of the time of a Tiger II tank whilst being capable of 80-90% of the uber-tank's performance. Its "primitiveness" was the byproduct of a great design.

After a rocky start, the English, Americans, and even the Soviets, all threw aircraft into the melee that bettered the best German piston-engined machines (and some were a survivable match for their jets) in most respects. In the ETO, the P-47 C & D, the P-38, the P-51 C & D, various marks of the Spitfire, Typhoon, and Tempest, the Yakolev 3 & 7, later model LaGG's, even the cast-off American P-39, and P-63 which the Soviets essentially gave a new lease on combat effectiveness by lightening them up and using them within their best design parameters, all were the equal or better of any German piston engined aircraft by 1944. While the allied tanks remained largely inferior, the trucks, small arms, and naval craft were never bested by anything of German manufacture. Only the Americans, Soviets, and British pulled off successful four engined bomber efforts. Even the Mosquito, B-25 and B-26 twin-engined bombers were generally better, faster, and tougher than the He-111 and the Ju-88. Allied sonar, radar and cryptography were also generally superior to anything the Nazis ever employed. Heck, it could even be argued that the pre-fab "Liberty Ships" cranked out assembly-line style from shipyards on both American coasts, were really what won the war logistically. The Japanese Navy and the German Kriegsmarine could never keep up with Kaiser's modular cargo ships being made at one or two a day. It's a form of sophistication with a different emphasis.

In the Pacific, the trend is even more dramatic. It is widely acknowledged that at the beginning of hostilities the Japanese Zero, the "Zeke," was the best aircraft in the PTO by far. By 1943 it was not. The F4U Corsair and the F6F Hellcat, "the Ace Maker" both could easily best the Zero in most performance areas, especially when tactics were developed that moved away from playing to the Zero's dogfighting strengths into the tactic called "Boom & Zoom" wherein the American plane's superior level speed, diving speed, and climbing rate, were used to exploit the relative lack of Japanese horsepower and armor. Again, American naval architecture was better, the Army and Marines' small arms were better, and we held significant advantages in armor, logistical vehicles and submarines if not torpedoes.

In a sense you are correct. The Germans were beaten, especially on the Eastern Front, via the industrial capacity of the Soviet Union and their willingness to suffer casualties. However, you sell all of the allies short on design in areas the Germans were inadequate or simply produced the most complicated machine to get the job done. If you have a weapon that does nearly all of the mission that the opponent's can and it's easier to build in quantity, more reliable, easier to train with, and can by virtue of sheer numbers be in more places at once than can the foe, I'd say that whiz-bang has lost out not to "primitiveness" but a different and just as valid design philosophy that is greater than the sum of its parts.
 
I know this will probably offend, but if the Army can't get RE troops to maintain their "dumb" guns, what makes them think they are going to do any better with electronic doo-dads?
 
This has nothing to do with Army weapons

The Army spends it's R&D money on all kinds of un-related research. Much of this is directed by congress. During the Clinton administration, they spent more then almost anyone on breast cancer research.

I wouldn't be surprised if the NJ congressional delegation didn't have a lot to do with this.

Proprietary weapons have no military application.

Jeff
 
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