gyp_c2
Member
...asap contact those suggested by ET...do not speak with them further until you do...Politely decline further contact unless accompanied by representation...and don't telegraph any intentions...
The Backlash against student gun owners, I was contacted by the Dean of Sudents @MSU!
- Thread starter mcooper
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gotarheels03
Member
Wow, you were certainly nicer than I would have been. I'm a college senior and had they told me how it was so "urgent that I meet with them" but wouldn't tell me why I'd want to know what the heck was going on before I met with them. Especially considering i've never been in any kind of trouble with the University.
The dean / associate dean doesn't just meet with students randomly, so if its urgent they want to meet, they can either tell me why or just not meet with me.
And I dont see anything wrong with posting those pictures. Its completely legal for you to do. If it ruffles the feathers of a few liberal university types thats their problem. I know my school patrols facebook. They use it to bust people for alcohol / drug violations (a policy I think is wrong in its own right) I wonder if they'd react this way to a student posting a gun pic in their profile.
The dean / associate dean doesn't just meet with students randomly, so if its urgent they want to meet, they can either tell me why or just not meet with me.
And I dont see anything wrong with posting those pictures. Its completely legal for you to do. If it ruffles the feathers of a few liberal university types thats their problem. I know my school patrols facebook. They use it to bust people for alcohol / drug violations (a policy I think is wrong in its own right) I wonder if they'd react this way to a student posting a gun pic in their profile.
crebralfix
member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Messages
- 1,356
Is all that stress over a few pictures really worth it? You have brought needless scrutiny upon yourself.
Become the gray man. Dump the pictures of the guns. Don't wear tactical gucci...blend in. I know it's really hard to shut up...I'm learning it too. Sometimes one just has to chime in on the pro-gun side. But resist if you can! Pretend to have no opinion on the "gun control" topic at the lunch table. This gets you a few benefits...such as concealed carry.
The reason for this is intel...if people *generally* know you have guns, they will think of you at times like these. They may also single you out for attention (as just occurred). They may also blab to their cousin, who tells his recently released felon friend that you have a nice AR-15. Why risk it?
Become the gray man. Dump the pictures of the guns. Don't wear tactical gucci...blend in. I know it's really hard to shut up...I'm learning it too. Sometimes one just has to chime in on the pro-gun side. But resist if you can! Pretend to have no opinion on the "gun control" topic at the lunch table. This gets you a few benefits...such as concealed carry.
The reason for this is intel...if people *generally* know you have guns, they will think of you at times like these. They may also single you out for attention (as just occurred). They may also blab to their cousin, who tells his recently released felon friend that you have a nice AR-15. Why risk it?
gotarheels03
Member
I disagree, there's no difference between his pictures of him and his guns and a car enthusiast posing with his modified car. He's posting pictures that reflect a hobby. People do this all the time on the internet and on internet profiles. Why should he change his behavior because of a few that are acting immature and irrational? What if we all did that?
rero360
Member
I was once in a similure situation, never got that high, stayed at the head of the dorm level.
I had some parts to my pistol and some shotgun ammo in my dorm room, my resident advisor saw them and reported me, I met with the head of the building, she said that I was in violation of campus law and that she was going to kick me out. I politely replied that the campus rules specificly bans firearms, and i stated that the only part that is considered a firearm is the reciever, which i did not have there. She got all huffy about it but i pointed it out to her in the rule book, told me she still didn't like it. I responded back with a basic, doesn't matter what you like or don't like, just follow the rules, nothing more nothing less.
Although I did get in alittle trouble my first semester there for having my Katana in my room, geez, people are so up tight.
I had some parts to my pistol and some shotgun ammo in my dorm room, my resident advisor saw them and reported me, I met with the head of the building, she said that I was in violation of campus law and that she was going to kick me out. I politely replied that the campus rules specificly bans firearms, and i stated that the only part that is considered a firearm is the reciever, which i did not have there. She got all huffy about it but i pointed it out to her in the rule book, told me she still didn't like it. I responded back with a basic, doesn't matter what you like or don't like, just follow the rules, nothing more nothing less.
Although I did get in alittle trouble my first semester there for having my Katana in my room, geez, people are so up tight.
Waitone
Member
Bag the pictures with firearms. You create your own opposition.
That said, asking for an appointment without offering a reason is a technique used to put you on the defensive. Since you were under the gun (sorry, just couldn't resist
) you were entitled to either are reason for the meeting or delaying it. Since the administration is about to fall into predictable patterns you might consider a few pre-emptive measures. Don't let the school push you without pushing back. I suggest sprinkling any future communications with words like "discrimination" and "hostile learning environment" and anti-gun-ism" (hey, control the language and you control the debate) and my personal favorite "offensive" or "offended". These words repeatedly used is a not-so-subtle clue that you do not intend to put up with their stupidity and that you know just exactly how the game is played.
Keep us posted.
That said, asking for an appointment without offering a reason is a technique used to put you on the defensive. Since you were under the gun (sorry, just couldn't resist
) you were entitled to either are reason for the meeting or delaying it. Since the administration is about to fall into predictable patterns you might consider a few pre-emptive measures. Don't let the school push you without pushing back. I suggest sprinkling any future communications with words like "discrimination" and "hostile learning environment" and anti-gun-ism" (hey, control the language and you control the debate) and my personal favorite "offensive" or "offended". These words repeatedly used is a not-so-subtle clue that you do not intend to put up with their stupidity and that you know just exactly how the game is played.Keep us posted.
This is prejudicial treatment.
The ACLU in your state would probably represent you and the others. They need not bring a civil suite, but could easily write a few letters to the Dean, MSU President and several others.
Same for NRA.
After you get classes taken care of, a brief letter recounting what happened in the briefest of terms to the school paper requesting that the others who were contacted get in touch with you. Refer them to the ACLU and NRA.
The ACLU in your state would probably represent you and the others. They need not bring a civil suite, but could easily write a few letters to the Dean, MSU President and several others.
Same for NRA.
After you get classes taken care of, a brief letter recounting what happened in the briefest of terms to the school paper requesting that the others who were contacted get in touch with you. Refer them to the ACLU and NRA.
Robert Hairless
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2003
- Messages
- 3,983
Start documenting before you do anything else.
Do it as a journal, organized by date and time. Reconstruct what has happened so far to the best of your ability. Keep it factual. Don't lie, don't exaggerate, and for heaven's sake don't include editorial comments such as "He is an ***hole." Keep it clean. The only kinds of comments you should make are things like "I was scared," "I felt threatened," and "He had a mean tone." You can also say things like "I felt reassured" or "I was relieved when he said ...."
Keep copies of all e-mails about this matter, both those sent to you and those you send. Print them out as you get them and save copies on a CD. Include references to those e-mails in your journal: "April 20, 2007, 10:30 PM -- e-mail from Dean Whoosis' secretary saying he wanted to see me immediately."
Don't rant in the journal and don't say anything in it that you wouldn't want published on the front page of The New-York Times. Sound factual and businesslike and not like a fanatic.
You are documenting for future use. That journal should be suitable for use by the lawyer you might want to get and, possibly, as evidence in court proceedings.
Believe it or not, you have more potential power than the university. Resist all advice to threaten anyone with or about anything, and for heaven's sake don't take any advice that you get cute. If you get cute you've given up your power. The university has been there and done that before. They know how to respond to cute and use it to their advantage. Universities have their own legal counsel and contract lawyers too. They also have alumni who are lawyers that support their alma mater. That's the university's strength.
It's also their weakness. Your power is your innocence. As long as you are factual, honest, and sensible you cannot lose. You can suffer damage but such injuries are often compensible and may the university look like hell run by the Devil himself.
Don't talk about the journal. Not to anyone. Universities are run by lofty people who do the worst imaginable things. If you talk about the journal to anyone, there is a good chance that it will disappear. Calm, methodical people are scarey to universities, and with good reason.
After you've finished bringing the journal up to date, start doing some quiet homework to find a good lawyer who is experienced in suing universities and winning. There should be several with that experience in suing your university. Universities delight in beating up faculty members so there always is at least one lawyer in town with that speciality. Find him or her. One way to do it is to search your local newspaper's morgue for references to "University of Michigan" AND "tenure." Look for the names of the lawyers most often mentioned. The outcomes of such cases are rarely published: when universities settle cases they don't want publicity.
Let your lawyer dictate your strategy. Don't rush off to contact the ACLU or any other organization. A good lawyer with experience in this field will know whether or when to inform the university that he is about to unleash the winged demons of the night. Let him do it. You're the victim, not the villain. Good litigation attorneys get great pleasure out of being mean to their opponents.
Stop posting messages here or anywhere else about this matter. Nothing you say can help you. Anything you say might hurt you.
And make sure you have copies of your web page as it existed when the professor saw it and the Dean spoke to you about it. I think you were foolish to post photographs of yourself and not too smart to have them include you with guns. But you're young and youth has not yet been declared a public health issue by the AMA. (I wish it were catching.)
You haven't made a fatal mistake. The Dean has.
Do it as a journal, organized by date and time. Reconstruct what has happened so far to the best of your ability. Keep it factual. Don't lie, don't exaggerate, and for heaven's sake don't include editorial comments such as "He is an ***hole." Keep it clean. The only kinds of comments you should make are things like "I was scared," "I felt threatened," and "He had a mean tone." You can also say things like "I felt reassured" or "I was relieved when he said ...."
Keep copies of all e-mails about this matter, both those sent to you and those you send. Print them out as you get them and save copies on a CD. Include references to those e-mails in your journal: "April 20, 2007, 10:30 PM -- e-mail from Dean Whoosis' secretary saying he wanted to see me immediately."
Don't rant in the journal and don't say anything in it that you wouldn't want published on the front page of The New-York Times. Sound factual and businesslike and not like a fanatic.
You are documenting for future use. That journal should be suitable for use by the lawyer you might want to get and, possibly, as evidence in court proceedings.
Believe it or not, you have more potential power than the university. Resist all advice to threaten anyone with or about anything, and for heaven's sake don't take any advice that you get cute. If you get cute you've given up your power. The university has been there and done that before. They know how to respond to cute and use it to their advantage. Universities have their own legal counsel and contract lawyers too. They also have alumni who are lawyers that support their alma mater. That's the university's strength.
It's also their weakness. Your power is your innocence. As long as you are factual, honest, and sensible you cannot lose. You can suffer damage but such injuries are often compensible and may the university look like hell run by the Devil himself.
Don't talk about the journal. Not to anyone. Universities are run by lofty people who do the worst imaginable things. If you talk about the journal to anyone, there is a good chance that it will disappear. Calm, methodical people are scarey to universities, and with good reason.
After you've finished bringing the journal up to date, start doing some quiet homework to find a good lawyer who is experienced in suing universities and winning. There should be several with that experience in suing your university. Universities delight in beating up faculty members so there always is at least one lawyer in town with that speciality. Find him or her. One way to do it is to search your local newspaper's morgue for references to "University of Michigan" AND "tenure." Look for the names of the lawyers most often mentioned. The outcomes of such cases are rarely published: when universities settle cases they don't want publicity.
Let your lawyer dictate your strategy. Don't rush off to contact the ACLU or any other organization. A good lawyer with experience in this field will know whether or when to inform the university that he is about to unleash the winged demons of the night. Let him do it. You're the victim, not the villain. Good litigation attorneys get great pleasure out of being mean to their opponents.
Stop posting messages here or anywhere else about this matter. Nothing you say can help you. Anything you say might hurt you.
And make sure you have copies of your web page as it existed when the professor saw it and the Dean spoke to you about it. I think you were foolish to post photographs of yourself and not too smart to have them include you with guns. But you're young and youth has not yet been declared a public health issue by the AMA. (I wish it were catching.)
You haven't made a fatal mistake. The Dean has.
Sounds like you have the beginnings of a campaign to get CCW allowed on your campus. Keep your eyes on that prize and don't relent until it happens.
Mississippi has some interesting firearms law . . . you may want to ask local counsel about . . .
- There is a broad right to bear arms in the state's constitution. text: “The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons.” Article 3 Section 12.
- The CCW law does prohibit CONCEALED carry on college campuses which the legislature is given the ability to do via the state constitution. So, to get CCW, you'll need legislative action to amend the CCW law. That's actually good in that there's a better chance of convincing a majority of legislators in a mostly republican state to do that versus typically liberal college administrators. Letter writing to newspapers throughout the state is a good place to start. Also have in-state, pro CCW students there exert influence on their legislator back home.
- Now for the interesting part: Appears you have the constitutional right under Mississippi's constitution to open carry. That cannot be trumped by your college's rules and regulations. There is some ambiguity to this though - see www.opencarry.org for more details. Also, personally, I'd talk to an attorney about it.
Next time you go to that dean's office you may be able to do so with a holstered gun on your belt in plain sight. Think I'd pay to see the expression on his face if that ever happened
Anyhow good luck!
Mississippi has some interesting firearms law . . . you may want to ask local counsel about . . .
- There is a broad right to bear arms in the state's constitution. text: “The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons.” Article 3 Section 12.
- The CCW law does prohibit CONCEALED carry on college campuses which the legislature is given the ability to do via the state constitution. So, to get CCW, you'll need legislative action to amend the CCW law. That's actually good in that there's a better chance of convincing a majority of legislators in a mostly republican state to do that versus typically liberal college administrators. Letter writing to newspapers throughout the state is a good place to start. Also have in-state, pro CCW students there exert influence on their legislator back home.
- Now for the interesting part: Appears you have the constitutional right under Mississippi's constitution to open carry. That cannot be trumped by your college's rules and regulations. There is some ambiguity to this though - see www.opencarry.org for more details. Also, personally, I'd talk to an attorney about it.
Next time you go to that dean's office you may be able to do so with a holstered gun on your belt in plain sight. Think I'd pay to see the expression on his face if that ever happened
Anyhow good luck!
History Prof
Member
That professor owes you an apology. He (or she) also needs a lesson in basic civics. Please tell me that this wasn't a history or poli sci professor. And what the heck was the prof doing on your web site to begin with?
All valid points to bring up with the Dean and the professor in question.
They have their uses. Despite their anti-2A stand, they do take a strong stand on students rights, and 1A rights (this was a web based issue, wasn't it?). The worst they'd do is say "no, your case doesn't interest us."
History Prof
Member
Oh, one other thing. DOCUMENT every assignment you've done for this prof, and every grade you've received. If your final grade doesn't jive with what you've actually earned, you will need this documentation to file a grievance. I hate to have to even think in these terms, but I know what my colleagues are capable of.
22-rimfire
Member
Interesting thread which caught my eye. I had a certified letter in my PO box yesterday and picked it up today. No idea what it was by the pickup card. It turned out to be a subpoena from District Attorney General to appear in criminal court as a professional witness for the prosecution (meth related stuff). Since another lawyer called me and left a message the same day, I was a bit nervous about what was going on. It appears the two are unrelated. So, I understand how you were stressed by the urgent request by the school. Personally I would not be too hard on the school with the VT thing so recent, but that is me.
I'm not taking classes under this professor, and I intend keeping it that way till I graduate. I now feel like I'm in a hostile learning environment as this professor is part of my department. To answer some questions:
The AR is not mine, it's a friend's, I have one, but it's a 20" gov't a3
The pictures are in an off campus apartment (friends) I live off campus as well.
SPD= Starkville Police department
And I attend Mississippi State University
Should I really contact the NRA? I think I'll give it the weekend, but now that I've thought it over. I want an apology as I've done everything right and I'm an upstanding student and citizen. Even if they were "cya-ing" to go out and assume that I'm a danger from 3 pictures while ignoring many others is absurd.
I think I'll write the student paper.
The AR is not mine, it's a friend's, I have one, but it's a 20" gov't a3
The pictures are in an off campus apartment (friends) I live off campus as well.
SPD= Starkville Police department
And I attend Mississippi State University
Should I really contact the NRA? I think I'll give it the weekend, but now that I've thought it over. I want an apology as I've done everything right and I'm an upstanding student and citizen. Even if they were "cya-ing" to go out and assume that I'm a danger from 3 pictures while ignoring many others is absurd.
I think I'll write the student paper.
poor_richard
Member
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2006
- Messages
- 466
Yes, you should contact the NRA. You should act quickly and decisively. Don't wait the weekend. Remember that they were not up front with you by not telling you what the meeting was about. Do not apologize to that professor. He owes you an apology, not the other way around. Use the weekend to contact any lawyer, ACLU, NRA, or anyone else you can think of who will aid in this fight (might even have them work in that mandatory apology from that prof). This doesn't mean that you have to take any action against anyone, but it's good to take the time to prepare just in case. While it is often prudent to avoid conflict, you have been drawn into this one, and conflict may be unavoidable. It's best to prepare for the storm in advance than to wait until it that storm is upon you.
Waywatcher
Member
Unbelievable. Substitute "Korean" for every instance of "gun-owner" and you will see him for the bigot he is.
He should be ashamed for being such a knee-jerk, reactionary, prejudiced hypocrite.
He should be ashamed for being such a knee-jerk, reactionary, prejudiced hypocrite.
alucard0822
Member
I think you handled yourself well, If shooting is what you are into, then you should be true to yourself, post pics, targets, badges whatever your first amendment allows you to. When I was in (community) college I organized a gun club (HCC already had a trap squad) with about 25 members, the school didn't like it too well, and it was neither sanctioned or supported by them, but it became fairly popular with our open invite to anyone who wanted to fire a pistol or rifle, most just fired off a couple, thought it was fun and never pursued it, but a few got the bug. The dean asked me about it a few times, I always kindly stated that we would like support from the school, and would enjoy any faculty attendance at the range, he mostly left us alone in the "pre-VT world". The more of us that stick to our guns like yourself the better.
like yourself the better.Zach S
Member
I went through the same thing after columbine.
I quit shortly after, and got my GED.
I made 47k last year.
I quit shortly after, and got my GED.
I made 47k last year.
RealGun
Member
It's not right, but if you get tired of being hassled and have other things to do than fight for your rights (and pay for it), you will be more discreet, especially with ugly black rifles.
Instead of expecting people to understand and be comfortable with these images, you will need to continue doing what you can to make them comfortable. Confrontations or shock treatment are probably not a good form of persuasion.
One suggestion would be to take pictures while dressed as a typical adult, although not ninja or SWAT, and not against a background that suggests a dorm room. If you have a message, make sure the one conveyed is the one you intended. A better picture might be one of a youthful group at the range. At least then you aren't mistaken for some whacko loaner.
FWIW. Good luck.
Instead of expecting people to understand and be comfortable with these images, you will need to continue doing what you can to make them comfortable. Confrontations or shock treatment are probably not a good form of persuasion.
One suggestion would be to take pictures while dressed as a typical adult, although not ninja or SWAT, and not against a background that suggests a dorm room. If you have a message, make sure the one conveyed is the one you intended. A better picture might be one of a youthful group at the range. At least then you aren't mistaken for some whacko loaner.
FWIW. Good luck.
Mcooper,
Your thread got my attention with having MSU in the title. I remember saying to myself “I hope that this isn’t Mississippi State University” as I was opening it. (Michigan is MSU as well.) Oh well…
I’m sitting here at 6:01 AM with less than half a cup of coffee in me, so please forgive any lack of eloquence in this post. The fog hasn’t lifted yet.
Please don’t take this as condescending, but I admire your maturity. A lot of college students don’t display enough in the undergrad years—I probably didn’t. In those years, we ARE intelligent, but we also are more emotional in our responses. We haven’t learned yet when the subdued response serves us better than a passion-fueled emotional one. From what I’ve read, you do understand this.
I want to be painfully honest with you about a few things. Are you a native Mississippi resident? If so, you understand that there is a way that the world works, and then there is the way Mississippi works. We are the embodiment of the “good ole boy” system. If you want to make the most impact in this situation, the usual roads are not the effective roads. There are people in this state who have the ear of people who own the purse strings to this and all other MS universities. You won’t get anywhere in this state without going to them. These include your representative, Trent Lott, Thad Cochran, Gene Taylor (may not be your representative, but he will want to know about this), Halley Barbour, any alumni from MSU that you know are donors, etc.
Alumni are a HUGE voice in the University system. I know quite a few large donors to MSU who are in my family and community.
However, I am not going to BS you. You won’t get too far with prominent alumni and public figures at your age. You may want to use a representative in your family or family friends to get past the gate-keepers.
Next.
You have chosen this path, whether you realize it or not. You have set yourself up as a pro-gun activist. What you just got comes with the territory. Let this be your wake-up call to begin preparing for cases like this in the future. You will want to rehearse the things that you will say for both private and public discourse. You want to fully understand your rights as well as the policies for any institution you may have to deal with. The road you are walking is a long one and one not without its bumps and curves. I am proud to have you choose to walk it along side us.
Next.
The university system works differently even in Mississippi’s “good ole boy” system. They operate as little bubbles of liberalism and socialism within an otherwise rational state. Most professors in our university system are from out-of-state. My sister is one of the few professors that is actually an in-state native professor—and yet she is also a liberal in many regards.
These professors operate within a different framework and mindset than the rest of the country—but that does NOT shield them from having to operate within OUR world if they are pushed.
I will not side-track your experience, but I had run-ins with liberal-activist professors in my time as well.
In my undergraduate degree in Literature at USM, I was in an American Literature class where the professor spent one entire class explaining why it is necessary to make it harder for Caucasians to enter graduate school and professional school because for a long time discrimination existed against minority groups. His rationale was that we should be penalized now as both a balancing function and as a form or reparations. To use his words, “it is now our turn to be penalized.”
I vocally challenged him in class, and went so far as to say that he was wasting our money by using a literature class as a platform to push his political agenda and should be fired if he continued. When he challenged me by citing free-speech, this was countered by asking him to show us where this “lesson” was on our syllabus and would we be tested on this information.
To make a long story longer, from that class on, my test and paper grades became “D’s.” I brought this to the attention of the Dean, and I was able to show how he had abused his position in his grading towards me. He was censured, and I received a B in the class after the DEAN had to grade all of my work for that class.
To any reading this, please let’s not argue the above tale. I put it in for illustration purposes only. Let’s stay focused on Mccooper’s issue. The event I depicted stems from my own beliefs as to how equality should operate verses this professors. The opinion really isn’t debatable with me.
Next.
This is where I may have to be a bit on the Devil’s advocate side of this matter:
What would you expect them to do? In the aftermath of the VT shootings, everyone is on heightened awareness. The professor saw pictures of you with various rifles. He most likely isn’t a gun enthusiast and doesn’t know any better. In his mind, this is something that should be looked at. Mind you, I said looked at—not discriminated against.
That professor doesn’t know you from Adam. Neither does the administration. Frankly, neither do we.
As much as I hate to say this, as Dean’s, they are not required to tell you why they are wishing to meet with you.
I don’t find it inappropriate to talk with you and learn about your positions. That is part of the liability of the University. You never know…. This may have been a great opportunity for your pro-RKBA activism. This could have been an opportunity to educate the Dean. This could have even been an opportunity to make a new friend. I routinely go out with a few of my old professors whom I have maintained friendship with. One, a very liberal philosophy professor, has an unhealthy fascination with Abita Beer that sends us on treks to Abita Springs, LA often. He knows that I am a gun-owner and he accepts this about me. I even argued gun-rights and hunting rights in his Ethics class about a decade ago (he’s a vegetarian.)
Now, what is said or done IN the meeting or in its aftermath is where there may be issues. If they do not say anything that is discriminatory or take actions against you, there is no harm, no foul.
I look at meetings like this a lot like that old scene from Road House with Patrick Swayze where he was instructing his bouncers on how to deal with unruly patrons. He explained that they should be “nice.” Ask the person to leave, but do it nicely. If he will not leave, ask for help and you will both be nice. I will tell you when not to be nice.
In these meetings, you should be nice. You should be very calm and understated. You should portray a professional imagine and exude a manner of confidence. You should be conversational and friendly. Underneath that exterior, you should have your brain operating at full force. You should be listening to what is said, processing it, and looking for inappropriate comments.
When/if those comments come, this is not your que to “not be nice.” This is your que to be confident. You calmly state where you are within your rights, and within the policies. You calmly point out that there is no recourse under either to single you out or take ANY discriminatory action against you. You need to find a non-confrontational way of slipping in (in a VERY confident and subdued tone) that legal remedies would be sought if there is any evidence of discrimination in the future regarding this matter.
Wait now to hear his/her response. You can expect a great deal of qualifying statements and CYA statements. This will let you know that HIS/HER brain is functioning, too. They are recognizing that you are intelligent and understand your rights. They are recognizing that they could be held liable if you press this.
I expect that this will be the last you hear of this matter at this point. The university has done their due diligence by talking to you and determining that you are just another nice guy. You have complied with their interest in a decent manner. All is good.
What you DO want to do ANY time you have a meeting like this is to KEEP DETAILED NOTES OF ANY CONVERSATIONS AND ANY CORRESPONDANCE. This will be the foundation of any case you may have to bring, and your lawyer will thank you.
Now, if there is ANY indication of discrimination towards you, then it is time NOT to get nice. You should be in a lawyer’s office that day and there should be a suit filed by the end of the day.
If this situation shows to be more than a simple inquiry or if there is indication that they aren’t letting this go, please PM me here on THR. I’d very much like to speak with you. While I do not know what I can do specifically at this point, I could aid in going in the right directions.
I have access to a number of persons here in Mississippi who are in influential positions both in the state and in the educational system. They are largely pro-gun who MAY be interested in this issue.
Please keep us posted.
John Warren
Your thread got my attention with having MSU in the title. I remember saying to myself “I hope that this isn’t Mississippi State University” as I was opening it. (Michigan is MSU as well.) Oh well…
I’m sitting here at 6:01 AM with less than half a cup of coffee in me, so please forgive any lack of eloquence in this post. The fog hasn’t lifted yet.
Please don’t take this as condescending, but I admire your maturity. A lot of college students don’t display enough in the undergrad years—I probably didn’t. In those years, we ARE intelligent, but we also are more emotional in our responses. We haven’t learned yet when the subdued response serves us better than a passion-fueled emotional one. From what I’ve read, you do understand this.
I want to be painfully honest with you about a few things. Are you a native Mississippi resident? If so, you understand that there is a way that the world works, and then there is the way Mississippi works. We are the embodiment of the “good ole boy” system. If you want to make the most impact in this situation, the usual roads are not the effective roads. There are people in this state who have the ear of people who own the purse strings to this and all other MS universities. You won’t get anywhere in this state without going to them. These include your representative, Trent Lott, Thad Cochran, Gene Taylor (may not be your representative, but he will want to know about this), Halley Barbour, any alumni from MSU that you know are donors, etc.
Alumni are a HUGE voice in the University system. I know quite a few large donors to MSU who are in my family and community.
However, I am not going to BS you. You won’t get too far with prominent alumni and public figures at your age. You may want to use a representative in your family or family friends to get past the gate-keepers.
Next.
You have chosen this path, whether you realize it or not. You have set yourself up as a pro-gun activist. What you just got comes with the territory. Let this be your wake-up call to begin preparing for cases like this in the future. You will want to rehearse the things that you will say for both private and public discourse. You want to fully understand your rights as well as the policies for any institution you may have to deal with. The road you are walking is a long one and one not without its bumps and curves. I am proud to have you choose to walk it along side us.
Next.
The university system works differently even in Mississippi’s “good ole boy” system. They operate as little bubbles of liberalism and socialism within an otherwise rational state. Most professors in our university system are from out-of-state. My sister is one of the few professors that is actually an in-state native professor—and yet she is also a liberal in many regards.
These professors operate within a different framework and mindset than the rest of the country—but that does NOT shield them from having to operate within OUR world if they are pushed.
I will not side-track your experience, but I had run-ins with liberal-activist professors in my time as well.
In my undergraduate degree in Literature at USM, I was in an American Literature class where the professor spent one entire class explaining why it is necessary to make it harder for Caucasians to enter graduate school and professional school because for a long time discrimination existed against minority groups. His rationale was that we should be penalized now as both a balancing function and as a form or reparations. To use his words, “it is now our turn to be penalized.”
I vocally challenged him in class, and went so far as to say that he was wasting our money by using a literature class as a platform to push his political agenda and should be fired if he continued. When he challenged me by citing free-speech, this was countered by asking him to show us where this “lesson” was on our syllabus and would we be tested on this information.
To make a long story longer, from that class on, my test and paper grades became “D’s.” I brought this to the attention of the Dean, and I was able to show how he had abused his position in his grading towards me. He was censured, and I received a B in the class after the DEAN had to grade all of my work for that class.
To any reading this, please let’s not argue the above tale. I put it in for illustration purposes only. Let’s stay focused on Mccooper’s issue. The event I depicted stems from my own beliefs as to how equality should operate verses this professors. The opinion really isn’t debatable with me.
Next.
This is where I may have to be a bit on the Devil’s advocate side of this matter:
What would you expect them to do? In the aftermath of the VT shootings, everyone is on heightened awareness. The professor saw pictures of you with various rifles. He most likely isn’t a gun enthusiast and doesn’t know any better. In his mind, this is something that should be looked at. Mind you, I said looked at—not discriminated against.
That professor doesn’t know you from Adam. Neither does the administration. Frankly, neither do we.
As much as I hate to say this, as Dean’s, they are not required to tell you why they are wishing to meet with you.
I don’t find it inappropriate to talk with you and learn about your positions. That is part of the liability of the University. You never know…. This may have been a great opportunity for your pro-RKBA activism. This could have been an opportunity to educate the Dean. This could have even been an opportunity to make a new friend. I routinely go out with a few of my old professors whom I have maintained friendship with. One, a very liberal philosophy professor, has an unhealthy fascination with Abita Beer that sends us on treks to Abita Springs, LA often. He knows that I am a gun-owner and he accepts this about me. I even argued gun-rights and hunting rights in his Ethics class about a decade ago (he’s a vegetarian.)
Now, what is said or done IN the meeting or in its aftermath is where there may be issues. If they do not say anything that is discriminatory or take actions against you, there is no harm, no foul.
I look at meetings like this a lot like that old scene from Road House with Patrick Swayze where he was instructing his bouncers on how to deal with unruly patrons. He explained that they should be “nice.” Ask the person to leave, but do it nicely. If he will not leave, ask for help and you will both be nice. I will tell you when not to be nice.
In these meetings, you should be nice. You should be very calm and understated. You should portray a professional imagine and exude a manner of confidence. You should be conversational and friendly. Underneath that exterior, you should have your brain operating at full force. You should be listening to what is said, processing it, and looking for inappropriate comments.
When/if those comments come, this is not your que to “not be nice.” This is your que to be confident. You calmly state where you are within your rights, and within the policies. You calmly point out that there is no recourse under either to single you out or take ANY discriminatory action against you. You need to find a non-confrontational way of slipping in (in a VERY confident and subdued tone) that legal remedies would be sought if there is any evidence of discrimination in the future regarding this matter.
Wait now to hear his/her response. You can expect a great deal of qualifying statements and CYA statements. This will let you know that HIS/HER brain is functioning, too. They are recognizing that you are intelligent and understand your rights. They are recognizing that they could be held liable if you press this.
I expect that this will be the last you hear of this matter at this point. The university has done their due diligence by talking to you and determining that you are just another nice guy. You have complied with their interest in a decent manner. All is good.
What you DO want to do ANY time you have a meeting like this is to KEEP DETAILED NOTES OF ANY CONVERSATIONS AND ANY CORRESPONDANCE. This will be the foundation of any case you may have to bring, and your lawyer will thank you.
Now, if there is ANY indication of discrimination towards you, then it is time NOT to get nice. You should be in a lawyer’s office that day and there should be a suit filed by the end of the day.
If this situation shows to be more than a simple inquiry or if there is indication that they aren’t letting this go, please PM me here on THR. I’d very much like to speak with you. While I do not know what I can do specifically at this point, I could aid in going in the right directions.
I have access to a number of persons here in Mississippi who are in influential positions both in the state and in the educational system. They are largely pro-gun who MAY be interested in this issue.
Please keep us posted.
John Warren
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Turkey Creek
Member
May I ask what was the point in those photos?- I agree that you have done nothing wrong, but you must be aware that with the recent events the authorities are going to act with ultra caution- I'm not saying you have to crawl under a rock and hide your enthusiasm for firearms, but it might be wise not to advertise it in this way right now- One respondent saw no difference in a photo with a rifle than with an auto enthusiast being pictured with his car- I wish it were not so but at this point in time, there is a huge difference- If you think you won't be questioned under these conditions you are living in a world we can only wish for presently- Put yourself in their shoes- They cannot afford nor should they ignor something like this without looking into it- Just by looking at pictures, how are they going to be able to differentiate you from some total whack job vis a vis VT?
Baba Louie
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,831
May you live in interesting times.
And so it goes. Thoughts from a cynical curmudgeon's POV (that'd be moi)...
mcooper, you've gotten some pretty good advice herein so far methinks.
Surely after the VT outrage educators across this nation will be on the lookout (for a while) of potential trouble. Wouldn't you if you were in their shoes?
Firearms are power. To be used in any number of methods, usually for "good" (self defense, sport, fun, hunt) sometimes "bad".
Tis one thing to see a photo or three of of an individual shooting at the range engaged in "good", it is yet another to see someone "posing" in a setting where something is... amiss, e.g., Shooter in uniform, same weapon in hand, apartment in Falluja/Bagdhad etc. all is norm (probably still gonna make some nervous) and well v. apt in collegetown USA circa post 4-16-07...
You're there to get an education. I see you've learned that not everything you experience in your educational path will be book learnin' eh? Focus on gaining your degree. Know that activists upset the applecart's status quo and some will look upon that with disfavor in their minds, thus becoming a potentially threatening target until proven otherwise.
Finally, always remember that quote vis a vis Miranda warning when dealing with any gov't entity... "What you say, CAN and WILL be used against you" and another blurb penned by Pink Floyd (I believe it was) "Welcome my son, welcome, to the Machine".
Nice rifle by the way.
And so it goes. Thoughts from a cynical curmudgeon's POV (that'd be moi)...
mcooper, you've gotten some pretty good advice herein so far methinks.
Surely after the VT outrage educators across this nation will be on the lookout (for a while) of potential trouble. Wouldn't you if you were in their shoes?
Firearms are power. To be used in any number of methods, usually for "good" (self defense, sport, fun, hunt) sometimes "bad".
Tis one thing to see a photo or three of of an individual shooting at the range engaged in "good", it is yet another to see someone "posing" in a setting where something is... amiss, e.g., Shooter in uniform, same weapon in hand, apartment in Falluja/Bagdhad etc. all is norm (probably still gonna make some nervous) and well v. apt in collegetown USA circa post 4-16-07...
You're there to get an education. I see you've learned that not everything you experience in your educational path will be book learnin' eh? Focus on gaining your degree. Know that activists upset the applecart's status quo and some will look upon that with disfavor in their minds, thus becoming a potentially threatening target until proven otherwise.
Finally, always remember that quote vis a vis Miranda warning when dealing with any gov't entity... "What you say, CAN and WILL be used against you" and another blurb penned by Pink Floyd (I believe it was) "Welcome my son, welcome, to the Machine".
Nice rifle by the way.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Sidearms and Sidetaperecorders
Reading this thread, I can't help but think of an analogy between a tape recorder and a defensive sidearm.
About twenty years ago I got one of those "meet with me" calls from a "Person In Authority."
Of course I wanted to know what it was about, and of course the PIA wouldn't tell me. "Just a little chat." I had a suspicion what it was all about, because I had recently been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perfectly innocent, but there I was.
At the time I kept a mini-cassette tape recorder in my briefcase for personal notes, etc., so I went to the meeting with it.
Handshaking, "have a seat," the usual, and I pulled the recorder out of my pocket and parked it on his desk.
"What's that?"
I replied, "It's a tape recorder. Do you mind if I record our discussion?"
"There's no need for that," he said.
"Well, apparently there is. You wouldn't tell me what it's about, so I could not prepare a response, so I want an accurate record of our conversation. With your permisssion, I'm turning it on now," and I pushed the record button.
The whole dominance-balance of the situation changed, and in a much more friendly voice he asked me not to record it.
I fished in my wallet for my lawyer friend's card, pulled it out, and handed it to him. "In that case, you should contact my attorney so we can set up another appointment." (He wasn't really my attorney, just a hunting/shooting buddy, but I kept his card in my wallet just to have his phone number handy.)
Faced with either having our little chat recorded or calling the attorney, he finally decided to allow me to record it. I think I still have that tape around somewhere. We had a nice chat and I explained how come I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, he was satisfied with my explanation, and that was that.
But the analogy between the tape recorder and having a defensive weapon struck me. Here I was about to be intimindated by a "Bad Guy," that is, a Person In Authority, and the entire situation reversed when I "brandished" my tape recorder.
Well, maybe it was because I "brandished" the lawyer's card.
But you get the point.
The see-saw of power had shifted in my favor.
He knew I was not going to be a sheep.
Reading this thread, I can't help but think of an analogy between a tape recorder and a defensive sidearm.
About twenty years ago I got one of those "meet with me" calls from a "Person In Authority."
Of course I wanted to know what it was about, and of course the PIA wouldn't tell me. "Just a little chat." I had a suspicion what it was all about, because I had recently been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perfectly innocent, but there I was.
At the time I kept a mini-cassette tape recorder in my briefcase for personal notes, etc., so I went to the meeting with it.
Handshaking, "have a seat," the usual, and I pulled the recorder out of my pocket and parked it on his desk.
"What's that?"
I replied, "It's a tape recorder. Do you mind if I record our discussion?"
"There's no need for that," he said.
"Well, apparently there is. You wouldn't tell me what it's about, so I could not prepare a response, so I want an accurate record of our conversation. With your permisssion, I'm turning it on now," and I pushed the record button.
The whole dominance-balance of the situation changed, and in a much more friendly voice he asked me not to record it.
I fished in my wallet for my lawyer friend's card, pulled it out, and handed it to him. "In that case, you should contact my attorney so we can set up another appointment." (He wasn't really my attorney, just a hunting/shooting buddy, but I kept his card in my wallet just to have his phone number handy.)
Faced with either having our little chat recorded or calling the attorney, he finally decided to allow me to record it. I think I still have that tape around somewhere. We had a nice chat and I explained how come I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, he was satisfied with my explanation, and that was that.
But the analogy between the tape recorder and having a defensive weapon struck me. Here I was about to be intimindated by a "Bad Guy," that is, a Person In Authority, and the entire situation reversed when I "brandished" my tape recorder.
Well, maybe it was because I "brandished" the lawyer's card.
But you get the point.
The see-saw of power had shifted in my favor.
He knew I was not going to be a sheep.
Clipper
Member
One thing all those shooters had in common was their online pics with guns...So it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to realize that posting similar pics would make the admin types pee their pants. You post that stuff, you should be prepared for the reaction you got. Take pics that are less threatening to the lace-panty crowd, like maybe observation shots at the range, or a tin can shoot. You can come off as a good old boy or a Columbine waiting to happen...The impression you leave is up to you, but you're not doing yourself or the rest of us any favors if you're not being aware of the sensibilities of the folks who see those pictures (and I guarantee you they HAVE seen those types of images connected with the nutters). By no means do I mean you should hide or be ashamed of who you are or what you do, but all a stranger knows about you is what you show them on that site. You can be an ambasador, or your own worst enemy...
HAD they told me I'd have walked in there with an lawyer at my side. Instead they choose to ambush me. I will be in contact with the attorney that will probably go with me to meet the Dean of students and this professor. When I speak with her I will talk about contacting the media, ACLU, and NRA.
Thanks for the advice JWarren, I'm a MS native, born and raised.
I see what you mean about letting alumni, and politicians know about this. I will be retaining legal counsel (as I want to CMA). After I get to talk to her and we have figured out my situation, as long as she isn't deadset against it. I'm gonn a "unleash the hounds" so to speak. Media, reps, maybe arfcom and THR firemissions, etc etc. I want them to understand that they cannot single out lawabiding citizens that have done NOTHING wrong and harass them.
You mention Gene Taylor, he's a US rep correct? I'll let him know as well, but if you can give me more background info on him or why I should conatact him (he's not my rep, Pickering is), I'd greatly appreciate it.
I see what you mean about letting alumni, and politicians know about this. I will be retaining legal counsel (as I want to CMA). After I get to talk to her and we have figured out my situation, as long as she isn't deadset against it. I'm gonn a "unleash the hounds" so to speak. Media, reps, maybe arfcom and THR firemissions, etc etc. I want them to understand that they cannot single out lawabiding citizens that have done NOTHING wrong and harass them.
You mention Gene Taylor, he's a US rep correct? I'll let him know as well, but if you can give me more background info on him or why I should conatact him (he's not my rep, Pickering is), I'd greatly appreciate it.
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