The Best Miltary Sniper rifle (for it's time)

[kiskicowboy]

I'd go with the 1903-A4 Springfield myself...but the OP doesn't seem to feel like it was a sniper rifle worth mentioning.

 

[Phaethon]

I really don't think the Mosin has anything going against is as a sniper's weapon. I mean, it doesn't carry the modern reverence that the Mauser 98 action does, but its construction lend it robustness and reliability incomparable with most rifles of the time. Remember that the Mosins the Finns and Red Army snipers used were of superior quality and accuracy to the ones you'll pick out of a crate at your local gunshow. As has already been mentioned, the Mosin rifle is probably amongst, if not the, most effective sniper weapon ever deployed in terms of the havoc and destruction it wrought upon the enemy.

With that being said, I don't think the Lee-Enfield is going to win any awards in this category. An excellent battle rifle, fast, smooth, yes. A precision rifle it was not.

As far as the Springfield 1903 goes, keep in mind that it essentially utilizes a Mauser 98 action - the only difference, if I remember correctly, being the usage of a two-piece firing pin. Though it served our boys excellently in the hands of trained riflemen, the argument is present in that it wasn't a distinctive 'type' of rifle in its own right.

 

[blackops]

I'm starting to almost debate the ultimate affect the M107 and M82A1 has had. Being able to dissable well armed vehicles then also engage personel is a huge advantage.

 

[Dr T]

For it's time? The Whitworth rifle. You can argue that this rifle was used to invent long range accuracy in the late 1850's. It was used by the Confederates during the Civil War.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitworth_rifle

Several years ago, Rifle/Handloader ran an article on the rifle. The targets were impressive.

 

[Dr T]

And for centerfire rifle, I would take the NATO rifle based on the Sako action...I have a civilian version chambered in 300 Weatherby, and it makes a nice system. My second choice would be the Remington 700-based gun.

 

[xfyrfiter]

My dad was a WWII US Army sniper, Issue rifle was 1903 Springfield, match bbl, accurized, with a 4x Weaver, used for all of the war. OP poll is not all inclusive.

 

[blackops]

I had the 1903 on the list and replaced it with the Enfield. Poor decision on my part.

 

[Pegasus]

I was trained with a Lee Enfield, so I suppose I have a soft spot for the weapon, in the right hands they are still an awesome beast, but technology, ballistics and knowledge has left them behind, and whilst they may not have been the best, they were never designed as a sniper rifle, they are up there with the best for their time.

For me, the best rifle of it's type today is the L115A3 (Link to non-Mil spec version) manufactured by Accuracy International. Clearly a lot of the choice an individual has is personal, a weapon that works for one, may not work for another, and vice versa, but the L115A3 is an amazing weapon that also happens to currently hold the record for the longest confirmed kill.

However I do own a .40 Model 70....so am slightly biased there too..

 

[d2wing]

M40 has been in use for 45 years and is still in use in updated versions. The Mosin has huge numbers but that's more tactics than rifle superiority.

 

[hiawatha]

If they had been on the list, I'd have voted for either the 03A4 or the M-1D. The Mosin Nagant was outstanding, though.

 

[Phaethon]

There was nothing really inherently wrong with Mauser 98's in the cold winters of Russia. The real problem was just their rifle grease; the Germans used a regular grease that would freeze up in the below zero temperatures, whereas the Soviets mixed their grease with petrol, which can go to -180F or so before freezing solid - which, to my understanding, is an impossibly low temperature. Besides, it's not like it was so bad that the German's were totally defenseless. It did happen that their rifles froze up stuck, but it's not like entire rifle divisions were disarmed by this; Stalingrad didn't carry on for over a year by the Germans throwing their frozen guns like javelins at the Soviets.

Also, this talk of Russian tanks in the spring is wrong. Operation Uranus, which resulted in the encirclement of the German Sixth Army and the general Soviet counter-offensive along the Caucasian Front was launched in November. If you look up Operation Uranus, you'll see that it falls under the Soviet "winter offensives".

 

[Kendal Black]

I voted for the M40A1. When introduced, the M40 and the A1 were much straighter shooters than the rifles on the other side, such as the SVD. I'm defining "best" here as "biggest margin over what the other fellow has."

Besides, I really like Remington 700's.

 

[d2wing]

The Mosin was not the best sniper rifle of it's day. If you call anyone shooting from concealment a sniper, than yes the numbers support the Mosin, but it was not better than the Finnish version, K98, British 303 and certainly not as good as the Springfield.
Just about any rifle of the day would have done as well used the same way. Also the Russian stories are just that. My Mosin is not nearly as accurate as my old Garand but that's just my rifles.

 

[Rancho Relaxo]

If you call anyone shooting from concealment a sniper, than yes the numbers support the Mosin

I think during any war most soldiers would refer to someone shooting from a concealed position a sniper.

 

[Phaethon]

There were very many highly successful German snipers that easily paralleled and even surpassed the kill scores of some of the famous Red Army snipers such as Pavlichenko and Zaitsev, but given that the victors write the history books, nobody really knows much about them (and they're hardly celebrated for being the mass murderers that their fellow snipers usually are, given that they've got a more recognized history for doing it with gas instead).

My point is just that the K98 was just as capable of a sniper rifle (perhaps more so) as the Mosin-Nagant, but due to a lot of unfortunate factors unrelated to it, was not. You can't say the Germans were bad soldiers because they got cold and froze in the Russian winters; they just had bad commanders because they didn't give them what they needed. Besides, if this discussion is purely about snipers, then the issue of frozen guns doesn't even apply. We can assume snipers were well versed in their weapon's mechanics and were able to maintain it far better than any Ural or Bavarian farmboy.

And before any farmers get on my case, remember that citizens in the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany had severe gun control laws in order to keep the masses in check.

 

[SentinelStrategic]

I gotta give it up for the M40. That rifle has set the standard for the modern sniper rifle. Not only for the action and design, but for the sniper that shot it. It symbolized the start of a new era of sniping, where snipers were trained in the craft and to fulfill that role in ways never before officially taught.

 

[jdh]

While the jarheads are doing well with the M40, the army snipers are doing amazing shots with the M24SWS. It has been in service for over 20 years and with the upgrades will be in service for many more. Had it been on the list it would have been my vote.

 

[d2wing]

I was nearly always shot at from a concealed position. I think of snipers as a specialist shooting from long range. If you broaden the definition that much any ambush would be all snipers. Not that the Russians weren't snipers but, the truth is a wild guess when it comes to the propaganda the Russians put out. I have read that the entire story of a German officer named Koenig was made up and he never existed according to German records.
Like a previous poster said to the victor goes the war stories. I've seen that first hand.

 

[HOOfan_1]

I was nearly always shot at from a concealed position.

That's what I was thinking.

I thought people who didn't shoot from a concealed position were usually referred to as soon to be KIA.

 

[HorseSoldier]

BTW the distances shot by the Russians are not disputed by any historian I ever read. They often made 800 yard shots or even more. That's the accepted version of history.

I'm sure some of their snipers made long range shots, but Soviet doctrine in WW2 (and since) has not emphasized long range sniping, but precision engagements inside conventional weapon engagement ranges. Essentially, more of the DMR concept than a sniper concept.

They carried through on that idea during WW2 to the point where they issued armored shields so snipers could set up and continue to engage even when they started taking effective return fire.

 

[Pegasus]

The idea that snipers alone held back an entire Army is ridiculous, they were just one point of a collections of swords that served a very precise and important role in causing confusion and containment of forward units.

Further, I have no idea where this belief in 800 yard shots has arisen from, some certainly likely took place, but this is urban warfare being discussed and even with snipers the majority of contacts would be less than 100m.

In the average city, especially one that has been blown to hell and back, there would be too many barriers to regular clear views over more than about 100-150 yards.

My ex wife's Grand Mother survived the siege of Leningrad, and she used to say that people could walk around the corner and be faced with German Soldiers, and often both sides where so shocked that no-one opened fire, they just ran back where they came from!

Now as with anything, reality likely lies somewhere between the extremes, but I cannot see Russia being any different to the contacts in Urban areas in Western Europe, and the majority of contacts, according all sources, was less than 100m (120yards)

 

[Rancho Relaxo]

I think people are confusing "cover" for "concealment".

 

[USSR]

Quote:
The idea that snipers alone held back an entire Army is ridiculous,

You're wrong friend. Well either you're wrong or my history professor who taught my WWII history class was wrong.

Your professor is wrong. Remember, Barack Obama was a constitutional professor and, Lord knows, I don't subscribe to his interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

Obviously there was more to the battle than just snipers. The Soviets had artillery across the river firing into the city but because of the battle line situation they had problems using the artillery to great effect.

The Soviets never let a little thing like a few of their own guys in the way of artillery or anything else stop them. Marshal Zhukov is said to have told Eisenhower "If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there".

Don

 

[MJ]

Vaarok covered it well, "Quantity has a quality all it own." Joe Stalin

The 6.5 had a great record in the Winter War and later on the Eastern front with the Nord Legion. But lets not leave out the Enfields on the other fronts from the desert to Europe. and the jungles of the Pacific and Burma.

 

[d2wing]

The Germans did not cross the river, most of the fighting was at close range. The German counter was to use flame throwers which are only useful at close range. We each got a vote, I voted M40. But I'll trade my Mosin even up for a Garand if you got one.