R.W.Dale
Member
Actually modern day automobiles are bulit to such higher tolerances nowdays that observing a break in period on a new truck would be like pouring Fuel injector cleaner into the tank on a Model A Ford
The Big Conspiracy! "Break-in-ology" 101
- Thread starter Mad Magyar
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Actually modern day automobiles are bulit to such higher tolerances nowdays that observing a break in period on a new truck would be like pouring Fuel injector cleaner into the tank on a Model A Ford
What is normal Break-In?
Tuner,
Another good one, my learned friend. Although I agree, I would like to look at break-in as simple wear...a wearing process. Similar to those jeans that fit so good just before you have to throw them away. That would be extreme break-in.
Break-in is nothing more than parts rubbing together until excess metal(plastic too, I guess) is remove. At that point everything is suppose to work well. We accept that something is broken-in once it performs with limited malfunction over a given period of useage. More useage means that tolerances open too wide, and soon the handgun needs repair (too much breaking-in)
My contention is that there need not be any break-in period when a firearm leaves a manufacturer. Quality control is the issue; it is not how many rounds we fire after we purchase the handgun. Tolerances can be checked, and standards can be followed. But if you think about it, doesn't a break-in period which requires you to fire two hundred rounds suggest that a handgun is out of standard?
It just seems that way to me.
Dobe
Tuner,
Another good one, my learned friend. Although I agree, I would like to look at break-in as simple wear...a wearing process. Similar to those jeans that fit so good just before you have to throw them away. That would be extreme break-in.
Break-in is nothing more than parts rubbing together until excess metal(plastic too, I guess) is remove. At that point everything is suppose to work well. We accept that something is broken-in once it performs with limited malfunction over a given period of useage. More useage means that tolerances open too wide, and soon the handgun needs repair (too much breaking-in)
My contention is that there need not be any break-in period when a firearm leaves a manufacturer. Quality control is the issue; it is not how many rounds we fire after we purchase the handgun. Tolerances can be checked, and standards can be followed. But if you think about it, doesn't a break-in period which requires you to fire two hundred rounds suggest that a handgun is out of standard?
It just seems that way to me.
Dobe
hurrakane212
Member
11th commandment
the 11th commandment is "cover thine A$$." The "break in period" may just be to cover the manufacturer and to make sure that the shooter doesn't give up on the pistol after a couple jams.~Nathan
the 11th commandment is "cover thine A$$." The "break in period" may just be to cover the manufacturer and to make sure that the shooter doesn't give up on the pistol after a couple jams.~Nathan
Break in
One thing that is being missed here is the different brands and manufactures of ammo and powder. Most people just buy the "cheapest" ammo that they can find and expect that a gun will fire it without any difficulty. I won't put my life on the line with that type of ammo or with a gun that has not been fired with the ammo that I choose to defend my life with.
One thing that is being missed here is the different brands and manufactures of ammo and powder. Most people just buy the "cheapest" ammo that they can find and expect that a gun will fire it without any difficulty. I won't put my life on the line with that type of ammo or with a gun that has not been fired with the ammo that I choose to defend my life with.
The part about all this that really bothers me is the fact that many manufacturers don't even test-fire their firearms anymore. There was a time when all weapons had one magazine and a single proof round fired through them to make sure they wouldn't blow up in your hand.
sm
member
Old Fuff, 1911Tuner, dsk, Jim Keenan- and others have replied too many times in regard to how Firearms have been influenced by "bottom line" , "legalese" and and you name it.
Not just firearms either - QC and Customer service on too many items today are "Ka-Put".
In '73 for instance , for my HS graduation gift to self, I bought a Steel Combat Commander. Brought that Colt 1911 home, taken apart, cleaned gun, and mags, re-assembled and best recall used Esso Machine oil. I have no idea where my Browning gun oil tin was that day...
Out of the box fired, no malfs, just run. I ran best recall 2 mags of hardball then started shooting up the "flying ashtrays". I had more "flying ashtrays" than hardball...a wee bit in hurry to go shoot and...forgot the hardball..
"Made right - not tight".
One of the guns I put over 100k rds thru bone stock. Gun was stolen and I really really miss that gun.
No fancy gun lube, Colt 7 rd mags or USGI 7 rd mags, I had cleaned it in gasoline...
Too much today is all about CYA and bottom line. Truth is some folks asked for what they got. Price instead of quality. Add business folks are not always stupid, Marketing sells, either create a market, or market heavy in what folks have been indoctrinated into believing.
"If you build it - they will buy it".
Folks griped about Full Serve Gas pumps...save a few pennies. They got it.
Now folks gripe when having to pump their own gas when dressed nice for a wedding, funeral , job interview, ...
Careful what you ask for - someone just may accomodate you.
Not just firearms either - QC and Customer service on too many items today are "Ka-Put".
In '73 for instance , for my HS graduation gift to self, I bought a Steel Combat Commander. Brought that Colt 1911 home, taken apart, cleaned gun, and mags, re-assembled and best recall used Esso Machine oil. I have no idea where my Browning gun oil tin was that day...
Out of the box fired, no malfs, just run. I ran best recall 2 mags of hardball then started shooting up the "flying ashtrays". I had more "flying ashtrays" than hardball...a wee bit in hurry to go shoot and...forgot the hardball..
"Made right - not tight".
One of the guns I put over 100k rds thru bone stock. Gun was stolen and I really really miss that gun.
No fancy gun lube, Colt 7 rd mags or USGI 7 rd mags, I had cleaned it in gasoline...
Too much today is all about CYA and bottom line. Truth is some folks asked for what they got. Price instead of quality. Add business folks are not always stupid, Marketing sells, either create a market, or market heavy in what folks have been indoctrinated into believing.
"If you build it - they will buy it".
Folks griped about Full Serve Gas pumps...save a few pennies. They got it.
Now folks gripe when having to pump their own gas when dressed nice for a wedding, funeral , job interview, ...
Careful what you ask for - someone just may accomodate you.
THink about this, any given cylinder in a motor will fire more times in 5 minutes than most firearms will for the duration of their existence. And yet it takes several thousand miles worth of running to get a motor "broken in". If this is the logic that we are going to use then maybe the break in period for a firearm should be over a hundred thousand rounds. Clearly the two do not situations do not relate directly.
kmrcstintn
Member
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the true meaning of break-in period
The true conspiracy lies at the heart of the core meaning.
Break-in period=
"a ruse created to trick consumers so ammunition manufacturers can sell way more ammo than necessary, which in turn creates a kickback scenario from the ammunition manufacturers to firearms manufacturers for their cooperation in proliferating the conspiracy"
solution: buy a revolver or a single shot firearm
The true conspiracy lies at the heart of the core meaning.
Break-in period=
"a ruse created to trick consumers so ammunition manufacturers can sell way more ammo than necessary, which in turn creates a kickback scenario from the ammunition manufacturers to firearms manufacturers for their cooperation in proliferating the conspiracy"
solution: buy a revolver or a single shot firearm
"If you are experiencing malfunctions from the “get-go”; quit buying exotic ammo and stop with the pliers/tweaking your mag, and the Dremel to the ramp & barrel…No wonder we have so many “Bubba” pistols out there…SEND IT BACK! It’s driving me MAD! "
I agree with some of what you have said but there are a host of minor problems that CAN be fixed by the average guy with a little skill. If I sent every pistol back for every problem I have had, I would have spent about $1000 on shipping and never learned a thing. There are a lot of things that are quick and easy fixes that you might as well do yourself rather than pay $30 to ship the gun to the factory and wait 6 weeks to get it back. If you know what you are doing and not just messing around, it will pay. I have been able to get almost every gun that has had problems working perfectly with just a little work. A lot of times, if you can spot the problem, you can talk the company in to sending you out the parts for free so you can fix it. They would rather send you out $3.00 in parts than go through the expense of having to take it in on repair.
I think I see what you mean that they should send guns out that are ready to work and not expect people to finish the job for them. There are some companies that expect the consumer to finish making the gun by doing a "fluff and buff". Kel-Tec does this. Many of their guns won't work unless the consumer knows how to do a proper "Fluff and Buff" It is a joke, do the stinking "fluff and Buff" at the factory and if the gun doesn't work, don't ship it out to be sold.
I agree with some of what you have said but there are a host of minor problems that CAN be fixed by the average guy with a little skill. If I sent every pistol back for every problem I have had, I would have spent about $1000 on shipping and never learned a thing. There are a lot of things that are quick and easy fixes that you might as well do yourself rather than pay $30 to ship the gun to the factory and wait 6 weeks to get it back. If you know what you are doing and not just messing around, it will pay. I have been able to get almost every gun that has had problems working perfectly with just a little work. A lot of times, if you can spot the problem, you can talk the company in to sending you out the parts for free so you can fix it. They would rather send you out $3.00 in parts than go through the expense of having to take it in on repair.
I think I see what you mean that they should send guns out that are ready to work and not expect people to finish the job for them. There are some companies that expect the consumer to finish making the gun by doing a "fluff and buff". Kel-Tec does this. Many of their guns won't work unless the consumer knows how to do a proper "Fluff and Buff" It is a joke, do the stinking "fluff and Buff" at the factory and if the gun doesn't work, don't ship it out to be sold.
Just about every firearm I have ever own, has changed its character after a few hundred rounds. Normally it is simply the action sliding smother, and the trigger pull smoothing out.
But I agree, the firearm should function fine, with the possible exception of very tight firearms that need to wear in. I do not mind that. I'll rather do that firing it, then having a couple hundred $$'s tacked on to the price.
But I agree, the firearm should function fine, with the possible exception of very tight firearms that need to wear in. I do not mind that. I'll rather do that firing it, then having a couple hundred $$'s tacked on to the price.
Normally what I do with a new pistol is cock the slide a few times to get an idea how gritty it is. I next degrease both the slide and frame, then coat the slide-rails with a mild liquid abrasive like Brasso - leave for a few minutes to dry then reassemble and cycle the action a few hundred times by hand. Once that's done, strip and clean the rails thoroughly of any remaining Brasso, lube mildly then off to the range to shoot.
I'm more concerned with reliability than 1" at 25 yards, so it works for me.
I'm more concerned with reliability than 1" at 25 yards, so it works for me.
XDKingslayer
member
You should notice some "break-in" effecting things on any pistol. Especially spring loaded things like magazines, slide catches, etc.
I don't think you have to hit a magical number like 500 before everything starts working right, but like 1911Tuner said, you DO have surfaces inside a weapon that needs to mate properly, and semiautos are basically two surfaces mating, the slide and the body.
I noticed a little break in on my XD. The big place was the slide catch lever. Try as I wanted I couldn't release the slide with a magazine in place, after a couple hundred rounds and a few nights locking the slide back and releasing it, I can now release it with just my thumb.
Two reciprocating pieces of metal will not always mate smoothly and uniformly. You will never get that to happen on a pistol no matter how much money you sink into it. While everything might be nice and kosher at room temperature, when you start shooting and those two pieces heat up differently and expand differently, you see different tolerances. The pieces need time to mate properly on their own, through wear and tear, in time.
But in general, yes, people do overhype it. It's necessary, but it's something that happens anyways and not something you need to gauge or put a number on or mistrust that pistol until that magical number.
Respectfully, I disagree. Break-in is just wear until a machine works properly. We should not pay for this. The manufacturer should pay for this. Any wearing process that causes a malfunction is considered to be in need or repair. Wear past that point is considered worn-out. If the reciprocating pieces of metal do not mate smoothly enough for a malfunction free handgun, then the handgun is out of spec. It is not up to us to smooth-out a roughed-out handgun.
My contention is that we do not have to accept a break-in period from manufacturers.
Dobe
Hawk
Member
"Break-in" is rapidly joining "limp wristing" as a phenomenon which may have a basis in fact but has been shanghaied by some manufacturers and dealers as an excuse for a defective firearm.
My personal guess is that "limp-wristing" is the correct diagnosis less than 5% of the time it's invoked with "break-in" at around the same percentage.
One local hit the "trifecta" with: "It needs another 1000 rounds before you can say it's the gun; you're probably limp-wristing it and you need to lose that Federal Red Box Hardball ammo." To no one's surprise, the gun was defective.
My personal guess is that "limp-wristing" is the correct diagnosis less than 5% of the time it's invoked with "break-in" at around the same percentage.
One local hit the "trifecta" with: "It needs another 1000 rounds before you can say it's the gun; you're probably limp-wristing it and you need to lose that Federal Red Box Hardball ammo." To no one's surprise, the gun was defective.
psychophipps
Member
Funny, my Ruger P97DC that cost me $280 NIB didn't require a breaking-in period. My Browning Buckmark with slab barrel for even less didn't require a breaking-in period. The Glock 17 I just bought didn't require a breaking-in period for the original owner. My friend's Sig didn't require a breaking-in period. My other friend's H&K didn't require a breaking-in period. In fact, most firearms don't require a breaking in period at all.
I was seriously considering the eventual purchase of a Kahr 9mm pocket pistol due to what I've read on the gun rags but the reports of poor quality control on such an expensive pistol are keeping me from going that route. I'm not going to drop $600+ on a firearm that I need to blow 200 rounds through only to find out, like all too many posters here, that Kahr simply didn't do a good job on the thing in the first place.
Break-in period = no money from my wallet, as far as I'm concerned
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )
I was seriously considering the eventual purchase of a Kahr 9mm pocket pistol due to what I've read on the gun rags but the reports of poor quality control on such an expensive pistol are keeping me from going that route. I'm not going to drop $600+ on a firearm that I need to blow 200 rounds through only to find out, like all too many posters here, that Kahr simply didn't do a good job on the thing in the first place.
Break-in period = no money from my wallet, as far as I'm concerned
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )
I don't trust any handgun for carry until I've put around 500 rounds or more through it, anyway.
As much as I agree that the manufacturers should do their damndest to supply firearms which are smooth and reliable, I'm not taking anyone's word for it - the pistol will be shot until I'm happy with its reliability using the ammo I plan to carry in it.
As much as I agree that the manufacturers should do their damndest to supply firearms which are smooth and reliable, I'm not taking anyone's word for it - the pistol will be shot until I'm happy with its reliability using the ammo I plan to carry in it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Break-in
There are several areas where use contributes to break-in. The slide to frame fit/smooth function is one...but there are others. The locking lugs
pressure seat and...if we're lucky...equalize. The sear/hammer relationship self-polishes. The mag catch shelf becomes a little smoother. The mag catch release gets better. The springs take their pre-determined set. Even the mainspring plunger begins to smooth up. Manual safety function too...All these things contribute to the gun's getting sweeter with use and this is the natural result of metal working against metal under pressure and friction...but for the manufacturers to assert that a gun "needs" a break-in period in order to start functioning as designed is...IMO...just short of criminal. It removes the onus from their shoulders...where it belongs...and places it onto the consumer's back.
Sure...You have a break-in period with a motor vehicle...but you do get to drive it while it breaks in. A gun needs a break-in period too...but it should function during this period.
Barring a serious design flaw, if the gun is built with quality materials to print specifications, and the correct ammunition is used, the gun should function from the first magazine or cylinderful.
Don't even get me started on "Limp-Grip" induced malfunctions.
There are several areas where use contributes to break-in. The slide to frame fit/smooth function is one...but there are others. The locking lugs
pressure seat and...if we're lucky...equalize. The sear/hammer relationship self-polishes. The mag catch shelf becomes a little smoother. The mag catch release gets better. The springs take their pre-determined set. Even the mainspring plunger begins to smooth up. Manual safety function too...All these things contribute to the gun's getting sweeter with use and this is the natural result of metal working against metal under pressure and friction...but for the manufacturers to assert that a gun "needs" a break-in period in order to start functioning as designed is...IMO...just short of criminal. It removes the onus from their shoulders...where it belongs...and places it onto the consumer's back.
Sure...You have a break-in period with a motor vehicle...but you do get to drive it while it breaks in. A gun needs a break-in period too...but it should function during this period.
Barring a serious design flaw, if the gun is built with quality materials to print specifications, and the correct ammunition is used, the gun should function from the first magazine or cylinderful.
Don't even get me started on "Limp-Grip" induced malfunctions.
Gordon Fink
Member
SwampWolf said:
After a few thousand cycles, which should take at least 15 years, I wouldn’t be surprised if my washing machine needed expensive repairs to keep running. After a few thousand rounds, my Kahr Arms K9 may need a $10 recoil spring.
~G. Fink
SwampWolf
Member
Yeah, but at least my clothes will be clean ,while your "unbroken-in" Kahr might leave you with more than just soiled britches after a gunfight that happened before you could get all them 500 "break-in" rounds downrange.
DHart
Member
1911Tuner expressed my thoughts exactly. A new gun will improve somewhat as the parts wear together, but the gun should not need that to run reliably. One of the reasons I buy mostly Colt 1911's is that they are extremely likely to run reliably right out of the box, so that's what I've come to expect. Flawless performance from the get go. When I buy a new 1911 that's tight and has performance/reliability issues and I'm told it needs to "break-in" before it will run right, I'm bothered.
U.S.SFC_RET
Member
Cheap pistols need a break in period. rock island armory is an example of this. Springfield GI Milspec did just fine without a so called break in period.
XDKingslayer
member
So you agree that there is a break in period, but you feel that our pistols should come already broke in...
I can agree with that to an extent. But would you pay full price for a pistol coming from the manufacturer that has 500 or so rounds through it to "break it in"? Springfield Arms recommends 400 rounds, would you pay full price for a pistol already shot 400 times?
1911Tuner has hit it on the head as usual, there should be a break in period, but the pistol should function during that period. Which is exactly what I experienced with my XD. It ran fine for it's first 500 rounds, it's just that things were tight. Now they've loosened up, it's working smoother, things are easier to manipulate, and it shoots a tad better (that's probably just me getting used to it though). It worked just fine during it's break in. Couple of ammo related jams and my limp-wristing, but nothing clearly the fault of the "break in period".
I'm not sure whether you are trying to win debate points or contribute to the discusion. The break-in per this thread is reliability, not just how well a part will seat with another.
Building a gun to spec does not mean that the manufacturer needs to shoot 500 rounds through it, in order to make sure that it will work properly.
I think you are missing the point of this thread. Most people on this thread are not complaining about the break-in wear that we go through with an already functioning handgun. It is the so called break-in that manufacturers will tell us must be done by someone who has layed down good money, and still doesn't have a handgun that will operate properly.
Dobe
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