The bill for Heller: $3.5 million
- Thread starter Mainsail
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Attorney's fees are ALWAYS part of a winning judgement. It's one of the levers in forcing parties to settle out of court. When an attorney works pro bono, he/she agrees not to bill the client for counsel. But if that attorney wins the case, he/she typically submits fees as part of the remedy in settlement.
What's interesting is that Heller and Washington DC are just starting to wrangle. There's considerable litigation being filed post Heller -- Declaratory judgement, injunctive relief, writ of mandamus.
Counsel in a SCOTUS case billing at $1,114 / hr. sounds about right.
What's interesting is that Heller and Washington DC are just starting to wrangle. There's considerable litigation being filed post Heller -- Declaratory judgement, injunctive relief, writ of mandamus.
Counsel in a SCOTUS case billing at $1,114 / hr. sounds about right.
I am sure that right now Gura can get $1000 hr for pretty much any case, big or small. It is that rate at which he should fairly base his request at, plus multiplier. As mentioned, a lot of the big name lawyers who didn't bill as many hours are in the $1000 per hour bracket.
Regarding the appropraiteness of this wage. You are paying for the skills of a top notch legal mind. You can of course always get lower quality work if you want. Further, when a lawyer states how much he is going to be billing per hour, that's how much you pay per hour. He does NOT quote $300, and then at the end of the case say "plus 3 law clerks at $100 each, plus one lawyer assistant at $200, plus a pair of secretaries at $30.
When you get the 'quote' of the hourly rate, you are getting the price of the legal team and their support staff.
Regarding the appropraiteness of this wage. You are paying for the skills of a top notch legal mind. You can of course always get lower quality work if you want. Further, when a lawyer states how much he is going to be billing per hour, that's how much you pay per hour. He does NOT quote $300, and then at the end of the case say "plus 3 law clerks at $100 each, plus one lawyer assistant at $200, plus a pair of secretaries at $30.
When you get the 'quote' of the hourly rate, you are getting the price of the legal team and their support staff.
Gray Peterson
Member
We can hope and pray he'll get every dollar and dime. It'll give New York City, Chicago, California, Wisconsin, the State of Illinois, etc a pause before they just fold.
Radagast
Member
Ideally they won't fold. An incorporation case that gets to SCOTUS before there are changes to the current bench will hopefully be accepted. At the moment the cities could fold, wait for a change on the bench and then play another hand.
Once the second amendment is incorporated then the game is over and they can't deal another set of cards.
Apart from that, a series of wins that fill the coffers of the lawyers for the Cato Institute, Second Amendment Foundation & NRA would be a good thing. First, pro second amendment litigation would become somewhat self funding, freeing money for other issues such as lobbying, advertising or simply serving their memberships. The second benefit is that other law firms seeing big payouts will be more likely to seek cases to sue governments, instead of trying to sue gun manufacturers and retailers.
Once the second amendment is incorporated then the game is over and they can't deal another set of cards.
Apart from that, a series of wins that fill the coffers of the lawyers for the Cato Institute, Second Amendment Foundation & NRA would be a good thing. First, pro second amendment litigation would become somewhat self funding, freeing money for other issues such as lobbying, advertising or simply serving their memberships. The second benefit is that other law firms seeing big payouts will be more likely to seek cases to sue governments, instead of trying to sue gun manufacturers and retailers.
leadcounsel
member
Worth every cent!
Yes, courts can require the party that files a frivolous suit be ordered to pay.
If DC doesn't all gun owners should send $1 to Heller for his troubles/fees.
It is amazing that DC has wasted millions of dollars on this! Leaders in DC should be outed immediately for their unconstitutional laws AND for pursuing a clear loss (and continuing to stubbornly hold on to bad law).
Yes, courts can require the party that files a frivolous suit be ordered to pay.
If DC doesn't all gun owners should send $1 to Heller for his troubles/fees.
It is amazing that DC has wasted millions of dollars on this! Leaders in DC should be outed immediately for their unconstitutional laws AND for pursuing a clear loss (and continuing to stubbornly hold on to bad law).
A good lawyer is well worth the money you spend. He could mean the difference between community service or five years in the pen, as a friend of my found out.
My only complaint would be the "pro-bono" statement. If you are working pro-bono, then you should not ask the court for attorny fees and costs. Although they should be allowed tax deductions for their time.
My only complaint would be the "pro-bono" statement. If you are working pro-bono, then you should not ask the court for attorny fees and costs. Although they should be allowed tax deductions for their time.
Radagast
Member
Pro Bono Publico means for the public good. It doesn't mean for free. Lawyers are recommended to spend 50 hours a year on Pro Bono work, unless you are in New York, where it is 20 hours.
1600 hours over 5 years is a hell of a commitment and there is likely to more required to defeat DCs attempt to circumvent the decision.
I'd say Gura and company have worked for the public good. Recovering costs will enable them to continue to work for the public good, while at the same time discouraging the more realistic politicians from blocking the roll back of second amendment restrictions.
It's also hard to claim a tax deduction if you haven't made an income to deduct it from because you were dedicated to a single case.
1600 hours over 5 years is a hell of a commitment and there is likely to more required to defeat DCs attempt to circumvent the decision.
I'd say Gura and company have worked for the public good. Recovering costs will enable them to continue to work for the public good, while at the same time discouraging the more realistic politicians from blocking the roll back of second amendment restrictions.
It's also hard to claim a tax deduction if you haven't made an income to deduct it from because you were dedicated to a single case.
Attachments
Bubbles
Member
Read pages 8 and 9 of the Complaint originally filed in 2003.
As has been pointed out, in civil right cases if .gov loses then it pays the plaintiff's court costs. Otherwise only rich people could afford to sue and lose over unconstitutional laws.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Hmmm... I know a lot of people in that job market here in Dallas and I think $300/hr billing is probably only for the elite top 25% coming out of a top tier school.
Having said that, Gura is easily worth $557/hr and the enhanced version. First of all, he is in D.C. which has both higher living costs, higher business expenses and higher legal costs as a result. Second, I've seen local family law lawyers here bill at $600/hr. and this is based on good ol' market principles.
It seems like a pretty good bargain to me that a lawyer who argues at the Supreme Court level is going to make $557 - and as far as risk and difficulty goes, Gura is absolutely right that if this case doesn't qualify for an enhancement under those conditions, then no case does.
As others have noted, with lawyers most of the money charged doesn't actually go to the attorney; but rather to office lease, support staff, office supplies and copying fees, malpractice insurance (lawyers have to carry this just like many other professionals), etc. - and this doesn't even count how often lawyers are unable to collect against their clients and have to eat the costs.
I'd also note that Gura basically worked on this case for 1600 hours from 2003-2008. So he spent about 25% of every year doing nothing but Heller (using a baseline of 2000 hours billed per year that is typical for many lawyers) That means that BEFORE all of the expenses I mentioned above, his revenue is about $360k/yr. If Gura gets lucky and gets a third of that after expenses and taxes (as an attorney, Gura is likely self-employed and pays both his share of taxes and his employer's share), he will clear less than $120k a year for having worked on the biggest civil rights case of the 21st century.
deaconkharma
Member
What seminole said...
"I doubt it! Politicians spend taxpayers' money to maintain and expand their own power. "
That's the part that saddens me the most is that our own dollars were used against us and now our dollars will finally go to the hands of those that deserve it and earned it in my opinion. Unfortunately though, since it is our dollars... They don't/won't care because it doesn't financially burden the guilty parties. It's almost like we pay the government to sue us into submission.
-And when we win we have still lost so much time and money...
I think this has more and more relevance these days:
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.''- Thomas Jefferson
"I doubt it! Politicians spend taxpayers' money to maintain and expand their own power. "
That's the part that saddens me the most is that our own dollars were used against us and now our dollars will finally go to the hands of those that deserve it and earned it in my opinion. Unfortunately though, since it is our dollars... They don't/won't care because it doesn't financially burden the guilty parties. It's almost like we pay the government to sue us into submission.
-And when we win we have still lost so much time and money...
I think this has more and more relevance these days:
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.''- Thomas Jefferson
No, that's what the market will bear and, in reality, $557 for trial attorneys (especially those appearing before the Supreme Court) is actually a bargain. I work with advisory attorneys who make far more per hour. It's always interesting arranging a telecon that will cost upwards of several thousand dollars for 30 minutes, depending on how many attorneys need to be in on the call. And usually, it's money well spent.
You assume that you will see the entire amount (the firm takes a hefty cut) or you'll have the time to spend what you do see.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Except to get the job that makes $557/hr, you have to first invest over $100,000 of your own money in tuition. Then you have to invest three years of your time competing against students from all around the country - and there aren't any slackers or idiots in the bunch. They have been weeded out already. So plan on borrowing some more money; because very few people are going to make the top of their class while working to pay their living expenses too. O yes, and if you don't finish in the top 15% of those students, you don't get the access to the $300/hr job that leads to the $557/hr job - instead you get to fight over the $45k-55k/yr jobs in insurance, family law, personal injury and state and local prosecutor/defense.
IF you get the golden ring and land the big firm job, where you are billed out at $300/hr, you will actually only get paid $160k a year - not that this is anything to sneeze at mind you. However, in order to earn your $160k/yr, you will need to bill around 2000-2100 hours per year. This means you need to bill 40-45 hours per week, religiously. Except that not all of your time is billable - as a new attorney, you'll be lucky to bill 8 hours for every 12 hours worked. Not only that; but holidays are now your nemesis. You may not be working for several days in December; but you are still expected to meet your billables target.
Frankly, if you worked 60 hours a week at any kind of professional trade (plumber, electrician, etc.), you would not only make money comparable to most attorneys - you wouldn't have to throw down $100k of your own cash on a risky bet that doesn't always pay off to get there.
Not to scare our new law school students; but the whole "pot of gold at the end of the law school rainbow" thing is grossly overstated in reality. Like most other things, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
Near as I can tell, there is a lot more money in running a law school then there is in graduating from one.
ieszu
Member
As someone with a few lawyers in the family, I do want to point something out. Not to minimize what has been said, but you have to understand that they do not bill by the minute, they usually bill in portions of an hour.
For example: Workers Compensation attorneys (representing the insurance companies) generally bill on a 6 min increment scale. So if a job takes 30 sec, it gets billed at 6 min. If it takes 6 minutes and 1 sec, it gets billed at 12 minutes. The companies know this, because it is in their contract. Usually, court time comes out to an hourly rate (you spend 6 hours in court, you can bill 6 hours). This is all accepted practice. So 2000 hours a year (40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year) is not that hard to hit unless you are a new lawyer, in which case you can not bill for some of your time, because it takes longer than "the average attorney".
Also realize that all billing slips can be checked by the clients, so "keeping your finger on the scale" doesn't work to well in this age of computers.... many larger companies have programs to monitor how long you spent on typing a letter or email, and phone records are accurate to the second.
So Gura's request is perfectly reasonable, given all the costs he has to pay out for his excellent legal mind.
For example: Workers Compensation attorneys (representing the insurance companies) generally bill on a 6 min increment scale. So if a job takes 30 sec, it gets billed at 6 min. If it takes 6 minutes and 1 sec, it gets billed at 12 minutes. The companies know this, because it is in their contract. Usually, court time comes out to an hourly rate (you spend 6 hours in court, you can bill 6 hours). This is all accepted practice. So 2000 hours a year (40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year) is not that hard to hit unless you are a new lawyer, in which case you can not bill for some of your time, because it takes longer than "the average attorney".
Also realize that all billing slips can be checked by the clients, so "keeping your finger on the scale" doesn't work to well in this age of computers.... many larger companies have programs to monitor how long you spent on typing a letter or email, and phone records are accurate to the second.
So Gura's request is perfectly reasonable, given all the costs he has to pay out for his excellent legal mind.
Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Member
Remember he did work for free for 5 years. 1600 hours of his personal time and didn't receive one cent. He actually lost money both in form of expenses and lost revenue. He could have been working on other (easier) cases and collecting $500+/hr in advance for those 1600 hours.
Every hour spent on Heller was an hour he didn't get paid for. Gura dpesn't even love guns. He did it because he strongly believes the government tramped on a citizens rights. Gura is more PRO-RIGHTS then PRO-GUN.
He took a huge risk. Yeah he is going to get paid now but:
If he lost he would have got $0.
If he won but the courts found it wasn't a civil rights violation he would have got $0.
He has asked $3.5 million but the courts may reduce that by half or more. DC likely will object to the number and come in crazy low ball like $800K and spend another $200K trying to prove that Gura time isn't worth $3.5 million.
He took a massive "risk" in terms of his personal time, money, and resources to do something he believed in. That is "pro-bono".
How many people here would spend 1600 hours (take 1600 hours off work w/o pay) fighting the US government over the course of 5 years spending their own money as they went with the hope they would win a battle nobody has ever won before. Would you do it?
Gura is a hero. Heroes come in a lot of forms. He fought for what he believed in and risked substantially to win one of if not he most important case for RKBA.
Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Member
Cities do have budgets though and the money is not finite. Lobbyist like NRA now need to make a big deal of how much money the city has wasted. Lets say the city spent 2 million on their defense and 3 million paying Gura. That's 5 million. How many cops could that have hired. How many community organizers. How many upgraded parks, basketball courts.
The NRA and other groups need to run ads convincing people that those in office are not good stewards of their tax dollars. They need to make people associate the lack of city funds with the crooks who caused the problem.
Sadly in DC it might not matter. DC is so stupidly off the charts left they buy anyting the crooks say hook, line and sinker.
The reverse might be more common. New attorneys bill (or are billed by their firms) for research time as that is how they learn. Experienced attorneys don't bill for researching issues they should already know. They do bill for researching matters that are unique or extremely detailed.
And pulling 2000 hours a year is quite hard, as you have to spend quite a bit of time doing nonbillable matters (office work, continuing education, building the client base, or whatever else the firm requires of you).
leadcounsel
member
1. The lawyers for Heller are absolutely heros that took huge gambles and won. They invested their time and could have easily lost. Many thought they would lose until the end when all of the work had been done.
2. It's easy to say that laywers are overpaid at $300, $400, $500 an hour. But like any similar profession, our profession has a HUGE entry fee. A good attorney is easily worth the hourly fee or a large retainer.
Four years of college ($20K-$100,000) PLUS lost earnings ($25-40,000 x 4 years) = ~$95K-$220,000.
Three years of law school ($30,000-$90,000) PLUS lost earnings ($40-60,000 x 3) = ~ $150,000 - $210,000
So the real "cost" of a law degree in the USA is somewhere in the $250,000-$430,000 range just in the degree and lost opporunity, depending on a variety of factors.
When you look at it like this, the fact that most lawyers are strapped with huge student loan debts and are behind the curve in payments, bills, etc. when they actually enter the work force.
And then there's the monstrosity of competition and the almost compelling need to work slavish hours in an expensive urban area where there is a variety of work and need for attorneys. To bill at the standard 1800-2000+ hours annually, you'll have to work 10-12 hour days 6-7 days per week (you can only bill for work actually done on behalf of your client, generally the norm is billing in 6 minutes increments - so that bathroom break is on YOUR time, not your firms' or clients' time).
And let's not forget the law firm, which takes a HUGE cut of that hourly fee. A lawyer will be lucky to see 1/3rd of that hourly fee.
Or, you can join the Army like me and tour the world!
Lord knows I don't get anywhere near a civilian salary with comparable work experience and education - but I enjoy what I do.
2. It's easy to say that laywers are overpaid at $300, $400, $500 an hour. But like any similar profession, our profession has a HUGE entry fee. A good attorney is easily worth the hourly fee or a large retainer.
Four years of college ($20K-$100,000) PLUS lost earnings ($25-40,000 x 4 years) = ~$95K-$220,000.
Three years of law school ($30,000-$90,000) PLUS lost earnings ($40-60,000 x 3) = ~ $150,000 - $210,000
So the real "cost" of a law degree in the USA is somewhere in the $250,000-$430,000 range just in the degree and lost opporunity, depending on a variety of factors.
When you look at it like this, the fact that most lawyers are strapped with huge student loan debts and are behind the curve in payments, bills, etc. when they actually enter the work force.
And then there's the monstrosity of competition and the almost compelling need to work slavish hours in an expensive urban area where there is a variety of work and need for attorneys. To bill at the standard 1800-2000+ hours annually, you'll have to work 10-12 hour days 6-7 days per week (you can only bill for work actually done on behalf of your client, generally the norm is billing in 6 minutes increments - so that bathroom break is on YOUR time, not your firms' or clients' time).
And let's not forget the law firm, which takes a HUGE cut of that hourly fee. A lawyer will be lucky to see 1/3rd of that hourly fee.
Or, you can join the Army like me and tour the world!
Lord knows I don't get anywhere near a civilian salary with comparable work experience and education - but I enjoy what I do.It's important to remember, as mentioned above, that the majority of lawyers making these sums live in areas with high costs of living. Do a comparison with other professions where pay isn't artificially restricted (such as by Medicare regulations) and you'll see the cost isn't that out of line.
Igloodude
Member
How many gun buybacks.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
herohog
Member
My defense lawyer has a $2500 retainer and bills out at $150/hr. in a mid-to-small town in central Virginia. Considering his cases and reputation for getting REAL good outcome for his clients, he is DIRT CHEAP and I am glad to have him!
Aguila Blanca
Member
Sorry.leadcounsel said:
Architects and engineers go through the same amount of schooling, or more. At the same costs. They don't get to charge anywhere near the same hourly rates as attorneys. Your argument has no merit.
herohog
Member
I didn't finish college and started life as a Mechanic. I am now a Senior Computer Programmer/Analyst. I make good money, more than some managers in some of the companies I worked for. I make more than the Net Admins who went through more school than I did.
Having said all that, my brother-in-law left high school and started selling `tater chips for a large distributor. He made as much then as I do now. Life isn't fair and you are comparing Apples to Squid. Some jobs simply pay more.
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