The Box O' Truth, 9mm's and .45's

[PedalBiker]

This whole debate shows the compexity of multivariate analysis. Just like how they can't forecast the weather or the economy with any accuracy past a certain point. The basic principles are pretty easy, the combinations are so numerous as to be unknowable.

If you knew exactly which scenario you'd be confronted with you could make a decision with much more confidence. I'm lucky to live in an area where more people die in car wrecks than from violence of any sort. For me, cholesterol numbers are actually more relevant than 9mm or 45.

It's still a hoot to read all the opinions.

 

[HannibalTheCrow]

Let me put it like this:

I would not want to get hit with either one. But,

If you think of it this way.

Which would you choose if you had to take one of the following:

#1. Being hit in the chest with a mop handle swung by Barry Bonds.

or

#2. Being hit in the chest with a wooden baseball bat by ME...(Mr. Normal Average Size 6' tall Man) not a pro baseball player.

I think the mop handle would hurt like hell and maybe take your breath away, but you would probably live through it without much more than a huge bruise on your chest.

But, a wooden baseball bat (Naturally swung much slower from me the normal guy) might stop your heart, take your breath away, drop you to the ground, maybe on your back, break your breast bone, break a rib or two, collapse a lung maybe, and you could very possibly die.

Close your eyes for a second and think about the impact of each one.

Which would you choose? And, is it a hard decision?

As for me? I'll take my chances with the mop handle! Just my opinion!

 

[kokapelli]

I think the mop handle would hurt like hell and maybe take your breath away, but you would probably live through it without much more than a huge bruise on your chest.

But, a wooden baseball bat (Naturally swung much slower from me the normal guy) might stop your heart, take your breath away, drop you to the ground, maybe on your back, break your breast bone, break a rib or two, collapse a lung maybe, and you could very possibly die.

HannibalTheCrow, I'm just curious, but what you are saying is that a 9mm "would hurt like hell and maybe take your breath away" and "only leave a bruise", but the 45 will knock you off your feet, "break your breast bone, break a rib or two, collapse a lung maybe, and you could very possibly die? And the little 9mm will just bruise you? Is that what you are saying?

Are you saying the 9mm can't break bones and can't cause you to die?

Kokapelli, who is Just curious and maybe a little confused

 

[bobfxd]

A 9mm may or may not expand but a.45 acp will not shrink.

 

[HannibalTheCrow]

No, I am not saying that a 9mm will only bruise you and take your breath away at all!!!

My point is this:

everyone is comparing what will happen to you if shot with a 9mm and a 45.

I was just making a comparison in the simplest terms I knew how like comparing being hit with a mop handle at 100mph or a wooden baseball bat at 80mph. Although both would hurt like hell..........I think the wooden baseball bat would ultimately do more damage if you were hit with both in the exact same spot. One is lighter moving faster and the other is heavier moving slower.

It is like saying which would your rather be hit in the mouth by, a 5' 8" man who weighs 160 pounds or a 6' 2" man that weighs 225 and both of them in really good shape? The correct answer for me is: Although both punches are gonna hurt like hell, maybe knock out some teeth and both could knock you down.........the bigger man stands a lot better chance of breaking your jaw and possibly even other bones in your face.......only because he is bigger and probably a lot stronger. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Greg8098]

9mm or .45 ???

average 9mm = 115 grs.
average .45 acp = 230 grs.



I think it woul be more appropriate to compare two objects, where one is twice as heavy. Surely a baseball bat weighs a lot more than a mop handle. Or how about compare the baseball bat swung by a 230 lb. man to the exact same bat swung by a 115 lb. woman. Either way someone will have a very bad weekend. Oh yeah, what about 7 to 8 strikes with the bat from the 230 lb. man vs. 15 -17 strikes from the 115 lb. woman. Let's get real people bullets kill, sometimes hours later, sometimes instantly.


I think they should come out with a new reality show,..... WHO WANTS TO BE SHOT BY A 9MM !!!! Man I can really see the people lining up for that one.

 

[HannibalTheCrow]

Well, put it however it suits you. As for me, and this is just my opinion, if I had to get shot by one or the other, I would certainly think the 45 with 230 grain Hp's would certainly do a lot more damage. But then, I dont intend to find out either way.

As for me, I own both a 9mm and a 45, and I use 124 grain or 147 grain Gold Dots in my 9mm and 230 grain Gold Dots in my 45. Maybe not the best but just my preference.

I say use what shoots the best in each weapon.

 

[Kali Endgame]

As said before: get what works for you.

 

[McCall911]

And it's another one of those endless 9mm vs. .45 debates! :banghead:

Well, one more post isn't going to hurt!

In the perfect world of mathematics, the one thing which has to do with penetration is momentum, which is nothing more than the speed multiplied by the mass. What will be detrimental to penetation is the surface area of the projectile. And the surface area is (sort of) the caliber squared. So to get a rough, simplified idea of the penetration potential of a projectile, multiply the velocity times the weight (in grains) divided by 7000 (to convert grains to pounds.) Take this answer and divide by the caliber twice. This gives you a number which will show, very roughly, the penetration potential of the projectile. So:

9mm (.355 caliber) 124-grain ball ammo at 1150 fps (approximately) impact velocity

1150 x 124 /7000 / .355 / .355 = (about) 162 penetration units

.45 ACP (.451 caliber) 230-grain ball ammo at 850 fps impact velocity

850 x 230 /7000 / .451 / .451 = (about) 137 penetration units

So the 9mm should have a slight edge in penetration by only about 18 percent. This is not saying the 9mm is "superior" or the .45 ACP is "inferior." It's just mathematics.

Is this formula accurate? Not really because there are a lot of variables left out. But it is "scientific" in that it is mathematically sound. (At least its "long version" is mathematically sound, but I simplified it here.) And like some things that are "mathematically sound" they don't always correspond to what happens in the real world.

 

[C-grunt]

9mm hole in the heart= death

45 cal. hole in the heart= death

They both use different ways to get the same result. 9mm uses speed and .45 uses mass. Someone here that I cant remember put it best.....

Muzzle velocity, ftlbs of energy, bullet wieght, and bullet design dont stop attackers. Gaping holes in vital organs stop attackers.

 

[Jamie C.]

Threads like this just crack me up... especially considering how many of the 9mm nay-sayers walk around with either a .32 acp or a .38 spl stuffed in their pocket.

Got a better chance of changing a person's religion than you do changing their favorite caliber, I think. And a silly little thing like "facts" aren't gonna make any difference.


J.C.

 

[HiroProX]

I'd still like to hear how a Mozambique from a .45acp is somehow more effective than one delivered via 9mm as both leave the recipient dead before they hit the ground.

Fact of the matter is, as they say on the Box 'o Truth, pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles. From my standpoint, the "one-shot-stop" is pretty much a unicorn, hear about them but I've never seen one.

Use multiple rounds with good placement. Anything beyond that is best left to coroners.

 

[Jamie C.]

From my standpoint, the "one-shot-stop" is pretty much a unicorn, hear about them but I've never seen one.

Funny thing is, I actually have first-hand knowledge of 3 instances of people being shot one time only with both 9mm and .45 acp.

2 of them were shot once in the upper torso with 9mm.

In one case, the bullet entered upper right chest, exited just above left rear hip bone. In the second, the one round of 9mm was fired point-blank into the center of the sternum. The round didn't exit.

In both cases, the individual immediately quit causing trouble, laid down, and quit breathing.

The 3rd case, the person was hit with one round of .45 acp, just above his right nipple. The round exited just at the inside edge of his left shoulder blade. He too was "DRT".

The officer involved with the last incident caught much hell for only firing one round, since that's not what training or procedure calls for... until he pointed out that there was nothing further to shoot at after the first round was fired. ( Seems the perp hit the dirt real quick. )

Both 9mm shootings were at almost-contact distance... no more than a couple of feet, at most. The .45 shot was fired from about half the length of a Crown Vic. ( 10-12 feet? )

Anyway, for me, it's enough to confirm the fact that I don't wanna be shot with either a 9mm or a .45. It also makes it hard for me to believe that whole "86% of all people shot with handguns survive" thing, since about 86% of all the people that I have first-hand knowledge of have died after being shot.

( Hmm... a strange side-note here... I actually know more people that have survived being shot with a rifle or shotgun than with a pistol. Weird... )


And none of the above proves anything... I just thought I'd share a bit of my own experience/database concerning shootings.


J.C.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

I know a guy who was shot 3 times by a BAR during ww2.

you cant say 45 is a better stopped than an '06.


Things happen, people live, some people die.

 

[foob]

The factor being the 'knock-down' advantage of the bigger bullet. It may not kill him instantly but at least the force would jarr him enough he'll stop or know he's shot.

This has to be the most rediculous reason given for .45 over 9mm. And I've read many. Second would be bad analogies like comparing baseball bats and mop handles.

Both have been used in this thread, I think we should continue discussing this, I know it can't get worse and can only get better now.

 

[kokapelli]

Yes, there actually are some people that think a 45 will slam a man against the wall or knock a man off his feet!

Of course some people think Al Gore invented the internet too!