9mm v/s .45 acp-Shocking Gov't tests

[BHP9]

Ok Gents I confess I lifted this post off of another forum so do not flame me.

After reading through this info it correlated with some of the test yours truly did over 30 years ago. These tests in no way will settle anything in regards to the debate on expanding bullets but the tests prove in my way of thinking that the 9x19 was and still is the superior military cartridge.

I also think that the much vaunted Sub-Thompson weapon of WWII was not the superior weapon that most people think it was as compared to the German MP44 in cal. 9x19 because of the limited penetration of the .45acp round.

I think it was shocking that the .45acp only penetrated a helmet up to 30 yards as compared to the 9mm which penetrated up to 130 yards. Considering the fact that soldiers often hid behind objects and do not pose out in the open until they are hit the 9mm seems to be the better way to go.

AT any rate here is the test , read it and give your comments as to the effectiveness of the two calibers as military rounds with full metal jacketed ammo.

I actually posted this in April of last year (and commented then that, although it really only constituted penetration testing - not "knock-down" or "stopping" power, I nevertheless found it most interesting!
Grant Rombough, Medicine Hat, Alberta

Here's the entire previous post:
I just HAD to respond to this thread by quoting a 1948 Springfield Armory report on some pentration tests they conducted using an Inglis HP, with a Colt .45 1911A1 as a sort of "control" pistol. The report is quoted below (verbatim) from pp. 178-9 of Clive Law's new book, "INGLIS DIAMOND: The Canadian High Power Pistol". Sorry about the resulting length of this post, but I trust many of you will find it absolutely fascinating. (Now I know that "penetration" does not equate with "stopping power", but I certainly found the comparative performance of the military .45 Ball ammo surprising!)
Here goes:

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT DIVISION
MEMORANDUM REPORT SA-MR 20-2100

L O Spaulding/lv

24 August 1948

SUBJECT:
Effective Penetration Range of 9mm Parabellum Ammunition.

OBJECT:
To determine the greatest range at which the subject ammunition will penetrate the M1 helmet.

SUMMARY:
M1 helmets were fired at using different 9mm ammunition to determine the greatest penetration range. A Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition having a velocity of 1250 f/s penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, which was further than any of the other ammunition tested.

REFERENCE:
Project TS2-7875-2024 J O 7875-6160

MATERIAL:

1. Weapons
a. Browning FN 9mm Pistol, HP Inglis-Canada, Serial Number 8T2367
b. Colt Automatic Pistol, Cal .45, 1911A1, Serial Number 1651407

2. Ammunition
a. Special 9mm Parabellum cases and Cal .38 S&W Special Bullets (Metal clad, 158 grains) and loaded to a velocity of 850 f/s.
b. Winchester 9mm Parabellum, 116 grain bullet, Lot WRA22026, 1,150 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
c. Cartridges, Ball, 9mm M1, 116 grain bullet (Parabellum) (Code T2CAB) Lot DIL- 617 (Canadian) 1,250 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
d. Pistol Ball Cal .45 M1911, Lot E C S25250.

3. M1 Helmets

4. Outdoor range facilities

PROCEDURE:
An M1 helmet was placed on top of a stake, back of which a target was set up to facilitate aiming and to lend support to the helmet. The 9mm Canadian pistol was then fired from a muzzle and elbow rest at the helmet. In the event the helmet was pierced, it was moved away from the shooter 10 yards and the procedure repeated until failure to pierce the helmet resulted. This procedure was followed with the special 9mm ammunition and with the high and low velocity 9mm ammunition. A similar test was run using a Colt Cal .45.

RESULTS:
1. The special 9mm Parabellum case with a Cal 38 S&W bullet penetrated the M1 helmet at 50 yards, but not 60 yards.
2. The Winchester 9mm Parabellum (1,150 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 120 yards, but not at 130 yards.
3. The Canadian 9mm Parabellum (1,250 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, but due to lack of longer range facilities was not fired beyond this point.
4. The Cal .45 ammunition penetrated the helmet at 30 yards, but not at 35 yards.

CONCLUSION:
It is concluded that the Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition with the 1250 f/s velocity, had a longer range penetration power than any of the other ammunition tested.

Prepared By: L O Spaulding, Ordnance Engineer
H F Hawthorne, Ordnance Engineer
E W Hopkins, Head Ordnance Engineer

 

[Handy]

This is a good arguement for 9mm in 'sighted weapons', like SMGs. It doesn't really address the issue of close contact shooting and stopping power with a defensive handgun. Nor are the results predictive of use against kevlar (helmet or vest).

As far as it goes, it is interesting that 9mm is better for shooting through tin, but not too shocking.

 

[stans]

Stands to reason that the 9mm FMJ might be better at penetration. It is smaller in diameter, has a sharper point, and is driven at higher velocity than the 45 ACP. I have also heard that a FMJ 22-250 can defeat body armor that resists .308 Winchester.

 

[AK103K]

As far as it goes, it is interesting that 9mm is better for shooting through tin, but not too shocking.

But it would be a shock if you were behind the tin.

 

[CWL]

Agree with Handy,

Kevlar is correct medium to test against. -But only for combat environment, not typical LE/SD application.

30-yard defeat of metal helmet with .45 is pretty good to know, since that's the extreme range I would ever engage target with pistolfire. Even a 'failure to penetrate' on a pot helmet is gonna scramble someone's brains.

Goes to show danger of OVERPENETRATION of high velocity FMJ ammo doesn't it? That's a big NEGATIVE for SD ammo selection.

Test does not evaluate tissue destruction, which is what we are looking for in SD ammunition.

 

[Pico]

Great study

Being in the scientific field, I wish I could do some studies like this instead of my everyday work. Good write up for 1948!

I've read ballistic tables and know 9 mil is fine in premium loads as a defensive round. Just as good as .45. I own two 9 mm pistols and feel safe using them as self-defense weapons. I know 9 also gives me more shots on hand with a larger capacity. 9 is much cheaper to shoot in volume and is the best caliber to learn on. Yada, yada, yada...

I also know when I see one of those fat .45 rounds or see a .45 shell bounce into my station at the range I know I have got to have a .45 and it will be the next caliber gun I buy.

Pico

 

[Tamara]

compared to the German MP44 in cal. 9x19

Or the MP44 in 7.92x33mm...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

BHP9, I don't think you get to call King's X or Safe Zone etc. for posting information you nabbed from some other forum. Your post here, or mine when I do it, means if you didn't bring your own Nomex, that is a shame.

I don't understand why you suggest the test was shocking in any way. I hardly see where whether one round is better than the other is solely determined by the litmus test of shooting an M1 helmet.

Given the test, BHP9, are you saying that since 9x19 penetrated M1 helmets at farther range than the .45 acp that American soldiers wearing M1 helmets were more likely to suffer head injury by German forces rather than other GIs firing 1911s chambered in .45? Maybe what should be said here is that the M1 did a better job of preventing friendly fire head injuries from .45 acp load than from enemy 9x19 loads?

I don't know how the calibers will do against kevlar helmets, but both are easily defeated today by Level II soft body armor and the militarly uses IIIA plus a higher rated chest plate.

 

[Master Blaster]

I saw a bullet resistant vest makers site where they showed that 9mm went through 10 of the 12 layers of a kevlar vest, and a .45 acp only went through two layers.

A .22 mag 22wmr penetrates further than a 9mm against the same vest 11 layers IIRC. I would guess that it would penetrate an M1 helmet at a similar distance to the 9mm, but I would not want a .22wmr in my holster if I was going to stop a charging attacker would you?

I wonder how a 12 guage shotgun slug would do against an M1 helmet, probably not as well as a .45 acp. I still would think that the slug would be more effective on a body hit as far as stopping the attack.

A .45 would also be more effective than a 9mm on a center of mass hit on an armed attacker.

JMHO

 

[Boats]

This thread reminds me of a line I heard in the Karate Kid 2 when I was younger. The kid and Miyagi are at the Okinawa airport when they see a poster of Miyagi's old rival breaking a log with his fists. The kid asks Miyagi if he can do the same and the old master replies, "I don't know, I have never been attacked by a tree."

I'll keep the 1948 test in mind if I am ever attacked by an M-1 wearing goblin at greater than 90 feet. However, since I use 200gr +p EFMJ, I think my penetration of a tin pot would be likelier over greater distances today than back then.

 

[Freightman]

x

XX

 

[Blackhawk]

These threads are always amusing.

They remind me of the French and their Maginot Line in preparing for an imagined threat using deduced tactics.

I can tell you that there is nothing quite as disconcerting as accurately laying fire on a target and realizing that it's ineffective.

If I can't get a Federation Phaser, I want a Klingon Disruptor.

Meanwhile, I'm stuck with 9mm or .45. Guess I'll just have to rely on both....

"I'm being attacked by a gun in a car so deploy the 9mm."

"Wait, he's getting out and charging so deploy the .45."

"Whoa, there are 9 of them so deploy the transporter...."

 

[Tom C.]

9mm vs. .45

Don't know what penetration of a WWII helmet has to do with anything today. The current U.S. helmet defeats the 7.62x39 rifle at point blank range. (Happened at Grenada).

 

[Boats]

Well we all know that the old mace and the flail were totally ineffective against plate armored knights because they never penetrated their steel either. . . for proof you just simply need to ignore all of those terrifying historical accounts of how these weapons actually killed knights in close combat.

 

[pogo2]

Reminds me of .38 Super

This story of 9mm vs. .45 ACP in penetration reminds me of the story I read of Colt's development of the .38 Super round back in the 1920's.

The Colt 1911 in .45 ACP was being used by LEO's of that time, but it was not good at penetrating hard barriers, like automobile windows and doors. So Colt undertook to develop the .38 super, with a smaller bullet moving much faster than the .45, for the 1911 platform. Their testing showed that the .38 Super was very good at penetration. And its ballistics are similar to the 9mm.

Everything I have seen indicates that smaller, faster bullets tend to penetrate better than bigger and slower, at least in full metal jacket bullets. So the helmet studies cited are consistent with that.

 

[DeltaElite]

Full house 10mm will out perform both of them.

 

[Boats]

If the mag ban dies a deserved death, I am getting a Glock 20, even if I don't like the grip!

 

[Newton]

For pistols, history and real shooting, especially mass shooting in wartime has shown us time and time again that you need a big fat bullet moving at moderate velocities to really WHACK someone.

If barriers or Kevlar is in the way, one of the newer super small, super high velocity rounds by FN or H&K provides the answer.

For we civilians, a 9mm is great, but a .45 is slightly better, but only very slightly. It's that simple.

Newton

 

[Wildalaska]

The 25acp is a far better defensive cartridge

WildstiritupAlaska

 

[AK103K]

especially when held sideways with a mean look on your face.