The final reason for carrying concealed instead of openly

[Oleg Volk]

http://www.davekopel.com/Corner/Latest.htm

In some places, the main danger to a lawful human is the (law) enforcement organizations, such as police, investigation beauraus, patrols and the like. Being armed covertly decreases the likelyhood of being singled out for harrassment, arrest or other mistreatment.

 

[sumpnz]

Gotta disagree with you here Oleg. I've heard plenty more stories about people preventing roving gangs of looters from stealing/killing than I've heard about guns being confiscated by roving gangs of JBT's. Seems like the odds were more in favor of those openly armed protecting themselves than being harrassed.

While discretion may be the better part of valor, I will still open carry.

 

[WayneConrad]

Open carry is what activism looks like when I do it. It's not about tactical advantage. I want to win the war, even if it makes me a battle casualty (although I don't think it will).

 

[idakfan]

As far as "arrest or mistreatment" this is why I've thought every open-carry state should have Open Carry Day. For example on Sundays gun owners decide to go about town open carry. LE can be notified ahead of time so when they get a bunch of phone calls from idiotic liberals they can say, "It's perfectly legal to openly carry a handgun."

 

[chopinbloc]

keep it up, wayne. i do the same thing in phoenix from time to time. gives me lots of opportunities to talk to people about gun rights and show that regular folks, not just cops and robbers, can be armed without turning into a drooling psychotic murderer.

 

[beerslurpy]

Well in VA I know that a lot of people regularly open carry so that store owners and other GFWs (especially the popo) get used to the concept of it being legal.

I wish FL was open carry, but I dont think that will ever happen with all the tourism related GFWs this state gets every year.

 

[Camp David]

Well in VA I know that a lot of people regularly open carry so that store owners and other GFWs (especially the popo) get used to the concept of it being legal.

Yup... I live here in northern VA and I see quite a few folks openly carrying handguns of all types; while I am proud of it and welcome it, I am still leery of it for several reasons. Initially, many of these folks openly carrying handguns are not use to it and do it only occasionally, yielding mixed results as best! For example, a few weeks ago, I was standing in line in Starbucks Coffee Shop and the guy ahead of me was reaching for his wallet and his holstered semi-auto prevented his access to his wallet... so this nut pulls out handgun from holster to gain access to his rear pocket so he could get wallet, all the while others in line nervously watching him! I attributed this to someone unfamiliar with carrying the gun and luckily nothing happened due to this incident... a year ago at Home Depot some guy was loading plywood into his truck on Saturday morning and his "holstered" revolver came out and fell to the street in full view of several customers; I didn't witness this incident but heard of it from other folks I trust. While these two examples illustrate the problems inherent in novice gun use, I am sure they are outweighed by the many skilled users. And indeed, if statistics can be believed, due to Northern Virginia's availability of open carry, our crime is greatly reduced when compared to tight gun control areas such as DC and MD to the north!

Further, I wonder if some of these open-carry folks are just trying to rile local law enforcement by flaunting weapons! Don't get me wrong: I support their right just as much as the next NRA member and I will, occasionally, open carry when the situation fits... however... making a political statement with a firearm at a coffee shop can move law enforcement to more seriously add scrutriny to all I fear! Don't take this the wrong way: I heartily support the 2nd Amendment, I just worry open use of firearms by those not learned might lead to issues for others...

So, as I said, I welcome open carry of firearms, and see it here in northern VA, but I am leery due to infrequent and/or novice users carrying a gun! As with any tool, a firearm needs constant training to be masterful of it and I hope everyone just exercises caution....

 

[earthworm]

I gotta weigh in on Oleg Volk's side to a degree. In a situation like NO (or heck;in any situation the cops are called) you're gonna have nervous authority figures arriving who have been trained to take immediate control of
the situation ("Prone 'em all out & sort it out later!") & likely have a "them vs us & anyone not in uniform is one'a them!" attitude.To date I've heard of at least one LEO not in uniform but displaying a weapon getting shot in NO.Ya gotta remember folks:the cops don't know that you're the good guy;all they're gonna see is your gun:the most obvious potential threat to them.
But are we talking about different situations here?
1.I'm facing a crowd with no uniforms.Damn-straight my gun's gonna be out &
pointed in at least their general direction!
2.I'm 'standing guard';no potential hostiles in sight.My handgun will be
holstered & probably covered by a garment;my longgun will be held muzzle
down or up barrel against shoulder.
3.The cops arrive:no visible threat.My handgun will be holstered & covered;
my longgun leaning against something muzzle up.
4.The cops arrive & I'm facing a crowd.As soon as the cops exit their vehicles
the hand holding the gun goes to shoulder level muzzle up finger out of the
trigger guard & I'm not moving.
I halfway agree with sumpnz:discretion is the better part of valor,but I carry concealed.

 

[dk-corriveau]

Camp David,

That is interesting. I have lived in Virginia, both Northern VA and S.E. VA, for 10 years now, and the only time that I have seen someone open carry is when I am at the range. I have never seen it out on the street, of course I could just be missing it. That being said, I wish I were seeing more of it.

 

[Sinsaba]

Further, I wonder if some of these open-carry folks are just trying to rile local law enforcement by flaunting weapons! Don't get me wrong: I support their right just as much as the next NRA member and I will, occasionally, open carry when the situation fits... however... making a political statement with a firearm at a coffee shop can move law enforcement to more seriously add scrutriny to all I fear

Why should obeying the law rile law enforcement?
What makes you think NRA supports open carry?
What situation fits open cary?
How is behaving in a law abiding manner making a political statement?

LEO is quite welcome to watch me... I'm obeying the law. If they watch long enough and hard enough then *maybe* if I get attacked I won't have to use my gun.

[rant on] As a rule, I carry concealed. If I go to a resturant that serves drink then I have to open carry. If the police have an issue with that or have an issue any time I open carry they are welcome to act and face the litigation that will follow. Remember the right to keep and bear arms is just that... A RIGHT!. I WILL NOT hide my gun because some police officer might not like it. At times (most of the time) I will hide it because it isn't socially acceptable (such as the work place, etc.). Just like there times when it isn't socially acceptable for me to spout off about my politics. However, that is MY choice, not someone else's[\rant off]

 

[Camp David]

Why should obeying the law rile law enforcement?
What makes you think NRA supports open carry?
What situation fits open cary?
How is behaving in a law abiding manner making a political statement?

All valid questions and note that I support all; however I do have concerns, for the reasons I detailed in prior post! As follows=>

Why should obeying the law rile law enforcement?

It shouldn't in most cases, but those carrying a gun today, particularly in urban areas, are considered suspect by law enforcement. Those not doing it correctly concern me, as they are all our emissaries of the 2nd Amendment rights! It only takes a few to abuse a law at the peril of the many than enjoy it. As I said, I fully support said rights, but am concerned about the few that might abuse them.

What makes you think NRA supports open carry?

The NRA does support "open carry" rights, as do I, but also urges caution and restraint and good judgment, as do I.

What situation fits open cary?

A very difficult question to answer... I enjoy strapping my holster on when the conditions warrant it; carrying a firearm concealed when they don't. The "situation" is a difficult item to categorize and offer definitive guidance; I have seen situations here in Northern Virginia where I would urge more "concealed restraint" as opposed to what some might call "advertising," but that is my opinion only...

How is behaving in a law abiding manner making a political statement?

It is when such behavior might prompt rather than deter the action desired. Everyone should take advantage of "open carry" laws, but do so in a restrained rather than liberal manner, again, in my opinion.

While I would err to caution in my guidance, as the vast majority of gun owners that I know are responsible individuals, all it takes is a few to abuse valuable legislation and good laws. As I said: my opinion.

Camp David

 

[WayneConrad]

If one fears to exercise a right because it will annoy or anger others, that right is, at least for that person, already lost.

Don't go to the back of the bus.

 

[Werewolf]

but those carrying a gun today, particularly in urban areas, are considered suspect by law enforcement.

Then law enforcement is manned by '*****. No one in their right mind could honestly believe that a criminal would brazenly walk about in public openly armed. Of course if open carry was the norm and everyone did it then hiding among the trees as a tree might make sense - might - but doubtful.

The last person a LEO needs to be concerned about is the person openly carrying his/her firearm.

Everyone should take advantage of "open carry" laws, but do so in a restrained rather than liberal manner

How does one go about openly carrying a firearm in a restrained manner. You're either doing it or you aren't. Kinda like being a virgin - you either are or you aren't.

 

[WayneConrad]

How does one go about openly carrying a firearm in a restrained manner.

Use a proper holster. Don't pay any attention to your sidearm. Wear clean, nice clothes. Shave. Bathe. Use deoderant. Say "Sir" and "Ma'am" and "Miss"; "Please" and "Thank you" and "You're welcome" when appropriate. Smile. Hold doors open. Don't get anxious, even if you are late.

 

[fb]

This is one of the most worthwhile subjects on the forum. And it is hard for me to disagree completly with any of these opinions.
I believe that if you cannot carry openly you do not have complete right to carry. Concealed is only part of the ideal.
Here in Michigan there is nothing in the law that says you cannot carry openly, however if you do you will most likely find yourself in a lot of trouble.
( I think they call it brandishing).
I believe the trouble comes from the idea that LEOs have that if it becomes well known any one can carry openly, everyone will. Everyone meaning those with a carry permit and those without.
I believe with just a bit of organization, open carry in Michigan could become common.

Good shooting

 

[LaVere]

To merely to see or show a handgun is NOT brandishing

This is one of the most worthwhile subjects on the forum. And it is hard for me to disagree completly with any of these opinions.
I believe that if you cannot carry openly you do not have complete right to carry. Concealed is only part of the ideal.
Here in Michigan there is nothing in the law that says you cannot carry openly, however if you do you will most likely find yourself in a lot of trouble.
( I think they call it brandishing).
I believe the trouble comes from the idea that LEOs have that if it becomes well known any one can carry openly, everyone will. Everyone meaning those with a carry permit and those without.
I believe with just a bit of organization, open carry in Michigan could become common.

Good shooting

Just to keep it straight here is the Michigan Definition of brandishing.

In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."



_________________

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

I live in Oregon and have had my CCW for a few years now. I have discovered the few places that are appropriate for open carry.

First and foremost, in my house. I normally have my G-27 or 1911 on my hip at home.

Second, in the woods while hiking/camping. Out there, it's necessary to have quick access to a firearm in the event that a cougar should attempt an attack.

Third and final, in a vehicle I may be travelling in. When on road trips or local commutes, I keep a holstered firearm on my person, uncovered at all times.

Other than these three places, one would never suspect I am carrying. Concealed carry is an art and I carefully practice it daily.

 

[Burt Blade]

The best reason to encourage concealed carry is that it makes life more difficult for the violent predators.

The rabid dogs cannot tell which young woman will pump a half dozen slugs into a would-be rapist.

Jackals cannot tell which arthritic senor citizen will drop his cane and drill a hole between their shocked-wide-open eyes.

Goblins will not be able to tell which mother sitting on a park bench near a playground full of kids will gut-shoot their worthless pederast selves, leaving them to die screaming for medics who come too late.

Open carry will tend to make the crooks select other targets. Concealed carry may help skim out the gene pool.

But is should be up to _you_ which method you use, not the state.

 

[torpid]

Concealed carry provides the deterrent factor of the unknown?

Taking this idea even further, all police officers and vehicles should be undercover and unmarked...

Discuss.

 

[WayneConrad]

Torpid, thank you.

How about, instead of looking like a steak and hiding nasty gristle inside, I just look like gristle? Most crooks don't like gristle.

Oh, sure, the terrorists/bank robbers/secret enemy operatives are going to shoot me first. Is it rational to make that the big concern when the lazy criminal looking for an easy steak is much more common?

 

[junyo]

Taking this idea even further, all police officers and vehicles should be undercover and unmarked...

And taking the idea to it's other logical end, all police should be in uniform and vehicles clearly identified. Perhaps "Evidence Collection" in big white letters on the side of surveillance vans, and uniforms with a bulls eyes on the front and back for officers assigned to infiltrate the mafia?

Some police officers need to be clearly and quickly identifiable by the public to perform their function. Other than predesignating yourself as a target when trouble starts, what, exactly, is the point of a private citizen advertising his state of readiness?

How about, instead of looking like a steak and hiding nasty gristle inside, I just look like gristle? Most crooks don't like gristle.

Oh, sure, the terrorists/bank robbers/secret enemy operatives are going to shoot me first. Is it rational to make that the big concern when the lazy criminal looking for an easy steak is much more common?

How about it's not just about you? When people that I care about are out in public I like the concept that the 'terrorists/bank robbers/secret enemy operatives' have to factor that since N% of the population is armed at any given time then there are probably N/100*Crowd guns in the bank/movie theater/school, and they don't know who has them. Therefore the concept of concealed carry created a deterrent effect even when I'm not present, even for people who aren't themselves armed. Same as passing a nondescript Crown Vic on the highway slows you down because it might be a cop.

Further, while "Fine, let them shoot at me first" is a great hairy chested he-man, cowboyed up, John Wayne in True Grit, Dirty Harry would be proud type statement, when it comes to the practical consideration of being in a life and death struggle, it's fundamentally unsound. If a fight has to come, the sensible man wants that fight as unfair as possible, with as much advantage as possible stacked on his side. That gives you, and those you're trying to protect an increased chance of survival, which is not just a point, it's the only valid consideration. Bravado and style points only count in Europe. To give up the advantage of suprise, to assume that your opponent will be the common and easily scared "lazy criminal" as opposed to a worthy adversary is exactly how you lose fights in the real world. While we're at it, why not assume you don't need reloads or that a .25ACP on the hip will make you gristley (gristly?) enough to scare off the lazy criminals?

 

[only1asterisk]

Use a proper holster. Don't pay any attention to your sidearm. Wear clean, nice clothes. Shave. Bathe. Use deoderant. Say "Sir" and "Ma'am" and "Miss"; "Please" and "Thank you" and "You're welcome" when appropriate. Smile. Hold doors open. Don't get anxious, even if you are late.

Right on!

I'll add: Maintain appropriate situational awareness and know the pertinent law.

Otherwise, look like a good guy, act like a good guy and have no problem most places. Have a bit of sense about you and don't go to sheeple places unless you want an activism opportunity.

David

 

[Byron Quick]

Open carry will tend to make the crooks select other targets.

*sigh* No, it will not. Crooks are not more intelligent than the general population. They tend to be less intelligent. And less observant. Start paying attention and you will see someone carrying openly in most states within a few weeks. Even if it's an off duty officer. Now watch the other customers in the mall, folks. Check out the big old five percent-maybe-that even notice he's carrying a weapon.

I carried a Browning HP in an IWB rig openly for years before concealed carry was legal here. In blue jeans, with hair down past my shoulders and out wider than my shoulders, a big old American chicken medallion, sandals, and whatever. Very few people ever noticed the handgun. The ones who did-asked me how long I had been an undercover cop

Most people are involved in their own world and their own concerns. If you don't act in a way that draws their attention, they don't notice you. Since they don't notice you-they don't notice your weapon.

Got a kick out of the carrying appropriately post. I was doing all that stuff before I was old enough to buy a firearm after 1968 cut me off. Does that mean I don't have to shave and bathe if I'm not carrying?

 

[WayneConrad]

what, exactly, is the point of a private citizen advertising his state of readiness?

This is the point. It's not the battle I'm trying to win. It's the war. Open carry is not about me, or my safety. It's about the 2nd amendment and liberty. I'm too lazy to fight for small causes like myself.

Besides that, when the bad guys are busy shooting me first, those who who carry concealed will get extra time to draw and eliminate the threat. Glad to be of service.

 

[GunGoBoom]

is the point. It's not the battle I'm trying to win. It's the war. Open carry is not about me, or my safety. It's about the 2nd amendment and liberty. I'm too lazy to fight for small causes like myself.

Exactly. Open carry is a great idea to get the sheeple (including the cops) to understand the 2A a little more. BUT, I don't like to see open carry by anyone, cop or otherwise, without a good retention holster. I think you're asking for trouble without at least a top strap. I'm not a criminal, but I know how to think like one, and an open-top sidearm is an invitation to a crook. PS. My stupid state doesn't allow open carry, so I'd have to risk arrest to exercise my constitutional right.